EICR C2 on missing RCDs on existing installation

Sarah Howard said:

I am surprised, that the installation which at the time of completion in 2008 was certified safe

That was probably to 16th Edition. 17th Edition, BS 7671:2008, which came into force later in 2008, mandated RCDs in more cases than 16th Edition. However, conformity of the installation at the time of installation was a matter for the original installer and their inspector.

Sarah Howard said:

and also passed the inspection in 2020

The person carrying out the EICR in 2020 may have had a different opinion.

It certainly does not meet the current BS 7671, and is demonstrably less safe, but does that make it "potentially dangerous"?

I agree that changes in standards doesn't necessarily mean that an earlier installation to a previous version of the standard is unsafe, but people carrying out EICRs also follow industry guidance on issues like this, which also changes over time.

Sarah Howard said:

To my understanding it is rare, that standard updates are applied to existing installations to this extent, and in a manner that requires immediate and extensive updates carried out within 28 days (deadline given on the report).

It's not "just happened" that RCDs are being more stringently applied in the standards ... we are talking provisions that have been in place now for at least in excess of 15 years.

As above, industry guidance does change. The IET does not publish guidance specifically addressing the suitability of particular issues found in existing installations for continued service, but other organizations do, for example NAPIT and Electrical Safety First, and this guidance is used for reference by inspectors.

It's the legislation that requires defects of C1, C2 or FI to be rectified in 28 days, not the standards and guidance.

Sarah Howard said:

Would anybody be able to confirm if this interpretation made by the engineer is correct,

You could get a second opinion, but without looking at the particular installation, and reviewing the report against it, which would of course incur costs, it's not really possible to advise the particular circumstances in a discussion forum like this.

Sarah Howard said:

and indeed all landlords in the UK are now required to update electrical systems in their properties, if the RCDs are not present? 

Again, the circumstances of a particular installation, and the industry guidance used by the inspector, would affect this.

Finally, I would add that on this question, only a court of law can provide a definitive interpretation of standard (and any attendant industry guidance) for given circumstances - British Standard BS 0 means that even those who are involved in writing standards cannot provide an official "interpretation". Hence, without a court case, you can only get an "opinion" from anyone.

I would also add that, in a place of work, relevant H&S legislation applies. It's a little different, in that the Employer has a duty to review risk assessments and safety provisions when standards change ... some safety provisions in legislation is "so far as reasonably practicable", and some are "absolute duty".

What this means, is that where the change in standards relates to an absolute duty, you'd have to make a change, whereas if it's a "so far as reasonably practicable" provision, you can take into account time, cost and trouble balanced against the overall risk (evaluated from severity of harm and probability of occurrence) to decide whether a change was necessary to adopt.

So again, it's not a given that changes in standards will (or won't) affect the safety built into an electrical installation, in a place of work.

Thank you for taking the time to answer in such detail. Of course an installation without RCDs is less safe than one with them, but this same applies to all changes in the standard - they are there to make the installations safer, yet it is not sensible or necessary to update every installation to be fully compliant every time an update is issued.

In this particular case it's maybe not only the findings in the report which raised my suspicions, but also the manner in which the results were presented. The report came with a quote, there was a list of several items to be rectified with very little details of what exactly they propose to do, and the quotation was given only as a lump sum even though the cost was a four-figure amount, with no breakdown of individual items or indeed a split between C2s and C3s, which would have allowed me to easily make an informed decision on which listed items I would like to have done and which ones I would like to consider. 

Sounds like it could be worthwhile for me to see if I can find the guidelines by either NAPIT or Electrical Safety First and also ask which ones the engineer is using in this assessment, or possibly even have EICR done by a different company. Again, thank you for your effort!

Do you not have any (RCD) Residual Current Device at all in the board?

I would code C2 for sockets likely to be used for outside use, probably a C2 for bathroom circuits. You  could have a look at best practice guide 4, but its up to the inspector to code as they think.

As its a rental it's probably best to fit rcd or rcbo it could save someone's life or prevent a fire.

As an example of industry guidance, you could look at https://niceic.com/getmedia/1acf8e45-b5a1-40ed-b066-d5f18674f99e/best-practice-guide-4-issue-7.pdf

It is complex, and far from definitive - a socket not covered by an RCD unlikley to be used for outdoor kit might be a C3 but one serving a room with a shower might be C2 for example.  Is a socket by a door 'likely to be used' for say a lawnmower?

I can see how two experts can reach differing conclusions. And not all inspectors of rented property are experts. Some very much not...

It is perfectly reasonable to seek quotes from someone not doing the inspection, and I'd be very wary indeed of an inspector insisting that only they can do the work involved...

Equally how old is the installation? Wiring that is nearly 20 years old and heavily used  may also have other things wrong with it, and there may be a tendency to suggest a complete refit, when perhaps a piecemeal method may be less disruptive. Or of course it may be in spit spot condition and good for the next half a century - from here we cannot see.

Mike.

Sarah Howard said:

concealed cables in walls (522.6.202 and .203)

Regulation 522.6.203 applies where the cable is concealed in a wall or partition having an internal metal frame, metal noggins or similar internal metal parts, irrespective of the depth of the cable from the surfaces of the wall or partition.

professional-electrician.com/.../

If the property is in England, then the relevant legislation is https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2020/312/introduction/made, The Electrical Safety Standards in the Private Rented Sector (England) Regulations 2020. Section 2 specifically calls out BS7671:2018 (which is the 18th Edition Wiring Regulations, not including any subsequent amendments).  If the IET and BSI choose to release a 19th Edition, then the law will still only require inspection against the 18th, until the government decides to change the law.

Your problem is that anything that was done pre-2018 is likely to be not strictly compliant. And it then comes down to the opinion of the inspecting electrician whether that's a C3 (doesn't strictly comply, but not unsafe) or C2 (doesn't comply, needs fixing).

There's nothing to stop you showing the EICR to any other electrician and asking for a quote to fix all the C2s.  If all the other electrics are fine, a new consumer unit may well bring it up to standard.

Sarah Howard said:

Of course an installation without RCDs is less safe than one with them

Only if something gets damaged!

gkenyon said:

It's the legislation that requires defects of C1, C2 or FI to be rectified in 28 days, not the standards and guidance.

Sarah Howard said:

Would anybody be able to confirm if this interpretation made by the engineer is correct,

You could get a second opinion, but without looking at the particular installation, and reviewing the report against it, which would of course incur costs, it's not really possible to advise the particular circumstances in a discussion forum like this.

Of course the problem is that an opinion that the installation merits C2 or C3 is never more than an expert opinion and, as with any professional matter, there can be a range of opinions.

If a second opinion says C3/satisfactory, you are home and dry, but the risk is that it might agree with the first one.

I do not think that a court would interpret the standard, but it might prefer one expert opinion over another. Problem is that it would be far more expensive to go to court than to pay for the remediation (whether necessary or not).

If Sarah's electrician is correct, I could not let my property. I am less risk averse than some, but I do not go diving or mountain-climbing. I do however drive a 1931 motor car with no safety features to speak of.

Sarah, you have my sympathies. If your installation is in good order, I would probably give C3.

Newfutile said:

I would code C2 for sockets likely to be used for outside use

Yes, but change the socket for an RCD protected one, as in 15th Ed.