BS-5839 part 6 LD3

Dwelling fires are still falling in England from 28,504 in 2019/2020 to 25,408 in 2024/2025. That said the number of fatalities is creeping up 194 in 2024/2025 compared to 166 in 2023/2024 and 199 in 2022/2023

(source assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/.../FIRE0205.xlsx)

The guidance that supports the building regulations ADB v1 still up to 2029 only requires LD3.

BS 5839-6 does recommend a risk assessment before picking a category. And categories are short hand not straight jackets adding a extra detector does mean its becomes another category.

BS 5839-1:2019 + A1:2020 recommends LD2 for new dwellings. Plus it is starting its review in January so start your ideas on how it should be changed now!

 Afraid that Andy's figure seems to assume that nobody has any smoke detectors/alarms yet!

HMG promises to build (i.e. hoping that the private sector will build) 1.5 million homes during its 5 years in office. So at £150 a pop, that is £225 million.

One really good jackpot in the Lottery!!!

So the parts alone are £200, what does it cost to retrofit to a building and then make good ? I presume perhaps a day, maybe two, so more like 300-400 all up.  So we do that for 20 million house-holds and that is 20*300 = 6000 million, maybe 20*400 - 8000  so between  6-8 billion. You are right - it would be a serious investment.

Could we save enough extra  lives over the life of such an investment  (perhaps 10-20 years) compared to that money spent another way?  After all the folk dying from all the other things we don't do instead so we can afford to do just this are also someone else's loved ones. There is no truly free lunch. 

I'm not saying we should not uplift the recommended standards - far from it,  just that there is an argument for putting our money most carefully where it has most effect  - cost benefit analyses are not some obscure excuse not to do things, they do serve a very real purpose. We do need to be able to clearly justify why a more complex and expensive recommendation is to be preferred.

To my mind Chris's thought experiment is correct, but very hard to sell morally.

Mike. 

Afraid that Andy's figure seems to assume that nobody has any smoke detectors/alarms yet!

As a first approximation yes. But then consider that most alarms seem to come with a recommendation to replace after 7-10 years ... so you might then see the £3B as being less of a one-off investment, but an every decade recurring cost.

   - Andy.

The current government (Labour) came into power July 2024 with the ambition of 1.5 million new homes during their term in parliament.  The next general election must be called by August 2029. The general election MAY be called earlier.  I very much doubt they(Labour) or any UK government can achieve this objective during A/The 5 year Parliamentary term.  This point is however mute in this discussion as all new design and builds for domestic dwellings need/will need to meet an LD2 category due to
BS7671
BS5839
Building regulation and Approved Documents.  

The LD3 category would only really affect the existing housing stock in the UK except for Scotland.  Now of that, roughly 25 million housing stock in England about 1/3 are rented.  Thus they will/SHOULD be covered by things like PRS (Private Rented Sector) and social housing.

New builds only have to meet LD3 as that all the approved document requires (England) and the approved document has been 

revised with current revisions going up to 2029 I cannot see this changing anytime soon

In the simplest form you could have a battery power smoke alarm with RF interlink upstairs on the landing, the same downstairs near the front door and a heat alarm/sensor in the kitchen.  By choosing battery powered with RF interlink it means that each unit only really needs to 2 to 4 screws and the same amount of Raw plugs (other brands of fixing are also available).  Then upto 2 hours of labour to install and commission.

The caveat that most people forget is that the domestic smoke alarm / heat alarm / multi sensor alarm is only valid for 10 years max.  After this the sensor is deemed no longer accurate by the manufacturer.

Overall the cost is not that much for the average household/family living in the average 3 bed semi that they own/mortgage.

Will Lloyd said:

New builds only have to meet LD3 as that all the approved document requires (England) and the approved document has been 

revised with current revisions going up to 2029 I cannot see this changing anytime soon

The Approved Document is slightly ambiguous. Paragraph 1.1: All dwellings should have a fire detection and alarm system, minimum Grade D2 Category LD3 standard, in accordance with the relevant recommendations of BS 5839-6.

The phrase, "all dwellings" includes existing and new buildings. Whilst Table 1 of BS 5839-6:2019+A1:2020 lists LD3 for some existing premises, the minimum for new or materially altered premises is LD2.

So, I interpret the Approved Document as recommending at least LD2 for new builds.

Sergio Fernandez said:

In the simplest form you could have a battery power smoke alarm

Not if you want to comply with the Building regulations: they require mains-powered alarms.

Sergio Fernandez said:

The caveat that most people forget is that the domestic smoke alarm / heat alarm / multi sensor alarm is only valid for 10 years max.  After this the sensor is deemed no longer accurate by the manufacturer.

Or the battery is no longer reliable.

Chris Pearson said:

Not if you want to comply with the Building regulations: they require mains-powered alarms.

This is another reason this discussion was started.  See first line of my post.  Does BS-5839 part 6 LD3 need to be reviewed? 

Current/updated Building Regulation and BS-5839 part 6 need to match as BS7671 refers out to BS-5839 part 6 and the whole BS-5839 series throughout

At the moment the advice is inconsistent - and of course building regs are normally only considered when there is actual building or renovation work going on for another purpose that requires inspection. Personally I think that then, like new build, the threshold of how much is reasonable to do and disrupt is quite a bit higher than an upgrade to an existing property with folk living in with their carpets and  furniture in place and so on.
Especially when folk reach an age when decorating is not an option, and disruption to the daily routine is not appreciated - I'm thinking of old folk especially on limited means who have had strokes or have limited sight and bumble about the place eating the same weekly menu because anything else is too difficult to remember. And pragmatically, some of them would probably argue that the next person to move in will do so in a few years anyway, and they can fix it then ;-) 

And I'd agree I think with the current costs of stuff and labour, a stand alone or  interlinked by wireless battery set is probably just about OK for the latter minimum disruption case , and drilling holes and pulling wires is more suited to those doing renovations and new builds and similar "major" works.

Mike

At the moment the advice is inconsistent - and of course building regs are normally only considered when there is actual building or renovation work going on for another purpose that requires inspection. Personally I think that then, like new build, the threshold of how much is reasonable to do and disrupt is quite a bit higher than an upgrade to an existing property with folk living in with their carpets and  furniture in place and so on.
Especially when folk reach an age when decorating is not an option, and disruption to the daily routine is not appreciated - I'm thinking of old folk especially on limited means who have had strokes or have limited sight and bumble about the place eating the same weekly menu because anything else is too difficult to remember. And pragmatically, some of them would probably argue that the next person to move in will do so in a few years anyway, and they can fix it then ;-) 

And I'd agree I think with the current costs of stuff and labour, a stand alone or  interlinked by wireless battery set is probably just about OK for the latter minimum disruption case , and drilling holes and pulling wires is more suited to those doing renovations and new builds and similar "major" works.

Mike