"Ed Throws Trade Bodies Into Chaos Over DIY Solar!" (efixx) :-) lol
Cue another early amendment and Section in BS7671 and another 'membership' level in the brilliant CPSs for the trade to do DIY Solar installs.
:-)
"Ed Throws Trade Bodies Into Chaos Over DIY Solar!" (efixx) :-) lol
Cue another early amendment and Section in BS7671 and another 'membership' level in the brilliant CPSs for the trade to do DIY Solar installs.
:-)
I am not sure why we need to back feed into a 13 amp socket? There are a load of grid tie inverter/battery units which can connect to solar panels, so any item plugged into the unit is using solar and battery backed, without any back feed into a 13 amp socket. And they can't give away solar power without payment.
Clearly a battery feeding back into the grid without payment would be a bad move. And not much better with just solar.
My first thought was designed to allow tenants to have solar, owner occupiers already have the option. But to get paid for export, one needs a second MPAN number, so the solar would need to be less than the base load, and smart meter only show every half hour, so one has no idea of the base load, unless one already has solar.
A iboost+ can use any export over 100 watt, which is OK with a 6 kW array, but with 800 watt maximum it seems a bit pointless. Unless everyone is going to get a second MPAN number.
The phrase "balcony solar" or "plug in solar" or "grid tie solar" can equally apply to a battery/inverter with outlet sockets on the battery, which puts nothing back into the grid, to a device which does feed back into the grid. I note already a British plumbing outlet is offering solar which feeds into the grid, but there is a 99 day waiting list, but as someone who already has solar, I know solar really needs a battery as well, and also if I got balcony solar which feeds into the grid, who will know if the energy is from the G98 registered solar, or the plug in solar? I already have the MPAN number, so this would be a cheap upgrade for me.
But today's news, says we have too much solar, so to buy more solar when the export rate has already dropped from 15p to 12p seems a bit of a chance.
A simple standard connector , either that one or perhaps blue and weatherproof, with a flap over the socket when not in use on its own 16/20 or 32A radial circuit perhaps.. If only such a thing existed !
And if you don't already have one fitted, your local camping supplies company will sell you an adapter lead with a 13A plug on the end!
No the Weiland would fine by '7671, on its own suitably fused or breakered final circuit, and is actually exactly the sort of thing I'd far prefer to see on every new house; 'plug in solar ready' but our plug and socket regs make it really awkward to sell something to plug into anything that is not a 13A socket for use at home.
My point was that the plug and socket regs do nothing but cause trouble for this sort of application and for a few other things, of which the biggest is caravans and outdoor power generally.
Now we no longer really have a mish-mash of 3 5 and 15A round pin plugs in common use,I reckon the 13A only rules could be safely de-fanged or even just repealed - and already for owners of caravans and workshops they are already widely ignored.
I'm less sure about BS EN IEC 61936-2:2023 Power installations exceeding 1 kV AC and 1,5 kV DC, as I'm not sure I've ever seen the connector that relates, or perhaps there is a numerical typo ?
Mike
Is a conventional 13A (or other) plug on this kind of thing really a problem that needs solving? These grid-tied inverters presumably do what they say on the box and won't keep pumping out juice once disconnected from the grid - in which case the live pins issue is a non-issue (at least no more than it would be with some conventional appliances which might leave the supply connected to capacitors or receive back EMF from a spinning down motor). In many respects these things aren't at all like conventional generators - it's only our insistence on using the word "generator" to describe them that's causing the problem. Call them, say, a negative load appliance, and things might fall into place more easily
- Andy.
And there we need to modify or repeal the plug and socket regulations
If the Government wants to get these things on to the UK market, it can quite easily amend the Regulations. However, I suspect that there are other matters at the front of its collective mind.
Can't be used to connect a generator to an installation without a "changeover switch", and even there, the thing on the wall would be a "plug" ... certainly no good for parallel operation because of possible 'live pins'.
We are discussing plug-in balcony solar systems, which have the inverter connected to a plug with exposed pins, so in this situation the IEC60309 plug/socket would be used in the same way, the inverter connected to the plug, relying on the inverter's design and protective measures to only energise the plug once connected to a supply. The supply from the fixed wiring would be connected to the socket.
What you are describing is the arrangement for conventional portable generators, where the generator provides a continuous supply on the outgoing terminals from the generator, which quite rightly would require the use of an in-line socket on the generator side, connecting to a fixed plug on the fixed wiring side, where to ensure safety then necessitating a change-over or other protective arrangements such that the fixed plug pins are never live when exposed. This doesn't apply to these types of plug-in balcony solar system though.
In fact, a BS EN 61936-2 Type 2 connector would be a great idea, it's a British Standard, already .
Did you mean a BS EN 62196-2 Type 2 connector i.e. an EV charging plug? I would suggest the large size of the plug/socket design would make it impracticable for the application and arguably, significantly over-engineered and costly. It's designed for repeated use, replicating the look and feel of a petrol pump.
One feature of that design, and some IEC60309 plug/sockets, which could be useful is the use of a 'pilot pin' to control when the supply is energised.
But this is all getting rather complicated, the RST plug/socket or something equivalent looks a good, efficient solution and it's compact.
At risk of sounding political, there is a cost of living crisis. How much are these things going to cost? Whilst those on limited incomes would benefit most from "free" electricity, how will they afford them in the first place?
A new socket-inlet hardly helps.
One feature of that design, and some IEC60309 plug/sockets, which could be useful is the use of a 'pilot pin' to control when the supply is energised.
It depends on whether the pilot pin configuration operates a switch or a device for isolation ... and see below.
BS EN 62196-2 Type 2
Yes typo
What you are describing is the arrangement for conventional portable generators, where the generator provides a continuous supply on the outgoing terminals from the generator, which quite rightly would require the use of an in-line socket on the generator side, connecting to a fixed plug on the fixed wiring side, where to ensure safety then necessitating a change-over or other protective arrangements such that the fixed plug pins are never live when exposed. This doesn't apply to these types of plug-in balcony solar system though.
Well, yes ... and no.
What's not clear, if the connecting arrangement isn't specified for bidirectional usage, is whether any overheating will be expected, especially with the duration the connection is required to carry current for. Worth looking at the additional requirements for temperature rise tests for BS 1363-1/EV plugs and BS 1363-2/EV socket-outlets ... particularly the power factor.
However, this was at 10-13 A load current ... hopefully with 800 VA, this ought not to be so much of a problem.
Heating will be proportional the I^2R, so you would expect 800W / 3.5A should be well within ratings.
What I'm not clear on yet, is why the German VDE standard writers allow a regular Schuko socket (comparable to BS1363 or IEC60309 plug) to be used to connect an 800VA inverter with upto 800Wp (+20% / 960Wp) of solar PV modules (i.e, panels), but if a 'special energy plug' which appears to be these better shrouded and locking, Wieland RST 20i3 plug/sockets, then the same 800VA inverter can be connected to upto 2000Wp of solar PV.
https://www.vde.com/en/press/press-releases/first-product-standard-for-plug-in-solar-devices
Some interesting analysis in this blog article below, discussing the energy within the inverter power conversion circuits, which could be present on the plug pins if the inverter were disconnected while in use. Does the greater connected PV modules powers increase the potential stored energy accessible on the plug pins, requiring shrouding and the locking feature on the the RST 20i3 plugs? Or is it a I^2R heating, concern than 3.5A for very long durations as would be seen with DC module over-sizing, it requires a better, lockable plug/socket?
https://cn-cob.com/blog-detail/vde-standards-an-in-depth-analysis-of-germany-balcony-power-plant
Some interesting engineering, and that blog article makes it apparent just how much the design of these systems interfaces with national standards for fixed wiring, so this really does need to be a topic which the BS7671 standards committees are engaged with.
At risk of sounding political, there is a cost of living crisis. How much are these things going to cost? Whilst those on limited incomes would benefit most from "free" electricity, how will they afford them in the first place?
It's all politics.
Some of the issues with cost of living crisis is the result of policies.
Doesn't help also that policies around energy permit energy trading at different levels that also affect prices. This has been brought about by policies (for good or bad).
Some county councils have invested in renewable energy for the benefit of people in their area ... others have not. Again, political policy at a local level.
etc.
Those docs are an interesting analysis, especially the variation of cable assumptions between countries. and slightly at odds to the german technical press, with the 800W limiting the export to the grid, but far higher figures supporting local loads in the building and filling local battery storage...
Truth will be in between as always and unmonitored installations could do almost anything.
Mike.
Those docs are an interesting analysis, especially the variation of cable assumptions between countries. and slightly at odds to the german technical press, with the 800W limiting the export to the grid, but far higher figures supporting local loads in the building and filling local battery storage...
Truth will be in between as always and unmonitored installations could do almost anything.
Mike.
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