Ed Throws Trade Bodies Into Chaos Over DIY Solar!

I am not sure why we need to back feed into a 13 amp socket? There are a load of grid tie inverter/battery units which can connect to solar panels, so any item plugged into the unit is using solar and battery backed, without any back feed into a 13 amp socket. And they can't give away solar power without payment. 

Clearly a battery feeding back into the grid without payment would be a bad move. And not much better with just solar.

My first thought was designed to allow tenants to have solar, owner occupiers already have the option. But to get paid for export, one needs a second MPAN number, so the solar would need to be less than the base load, and smart meter only show every half hour, so one has no idea of the base load, unless one already has solar.

A iboost+ can use any export over 100 watt, which is OK with a 6 kW array, but with 800 watt maximum it seems a bit pointless. Unless everyone is going to get a second MPAN number. 

The phrase "balcony solar" or "plug in solar" or "grid tie solar" can equally apply to a battery/inverter with outlet sockets on the battery, which puts nothing back into the grid, to a device which does feed back into the grid. I note already a British plumbing outlet is offering solar which feeds into the grid, but there is a 99 day waiting list, but as someone who already has solar, I know solar really needs a battery as well, and also if I got balcony solar which feeds into the grid, who will know if the energy is from the G98 registered solar, or the plug in solar? I already have the MPAN number, so this would be a cheap upgrade for me.

But today's news, says we have too much solar, so to buy more solar when the export rate has already dropped from 15p to 12p seems a bit of a chance. 

mapj1 said:

it would benefit from the Wiring Regs having some provision for something like the Wieland RST socket/plug arrangements used in Germany.

Does BS 7671 prohibit that arrangement? (Provided, of course, a dedicated circuit is provided for connection of the generating set, Regulation 551.7.2.1 now, was 551.7.2.)

mapj1 said:

A simple standard connector , either that one or perhaps blue and weatherproof, with a flap over the socket when not in use on its own 16/20 or 32A  radial circuit perhaps.. If only such a thing existed !

I assume you are hinting at an IEC60309 plug/socket, but I'm not sure whether I agree because being general purpose, it potentially brings its own problems, like someone plugging a 16A load into their their balcony solar socket, using it to power their 16A EV charger, or other heavy duty load. Which might be ok if connected on a dedicated 16A radial, but would mean the IEC60309 socket would be unsuitable for use as an outdoor connector for a plug-in solar system connecting to an existing ring circuit - that takes you back to using a regular 13A plug/socket.

Plus, there's a difference in construction - the RST plug/socket appears to have rather better shrouding of the plug pins than an IEC60309 plug and is more compact, fitting within the space of existing wiring accessories, so could be mounted on back-boxes and regular sized  accessories, whereas IEC60309 are normally quite a bit bigger with larger enclosures.

I can see some logic / benefit for having a clearly distinct and separate type of connector for generating devices.

I don't see the issue as being whether BS7671 prohibits the use of Wieland RST sockets, rather the issue is that as plug-in solar and plug-in battery storage is introduced into Britain, it would be beneficial for BS7671 define what the standardised plug/socket interface should be for those systems, where a dedicated socket is being provided.

If plug-in generating devices are now a consumer product, then BS7671 has to keep up with the demands being placed on wiring installations and propose suitable and safe arrangements for how these should be connected into the fixed wiring. It's happening in other countries, like Germany and their VDE standards, granted they are some years ahead of Britain and our BS7671 but we should be aiming to keep up !

TurboGen said:

I assume you are hinting at an IEC60309 plug/socket,

Can't be used to connect a generator to an installation without a "changeover switch", and even there, the thing on the wall would be a "plug" ... certainly no good for parallel operation because of possible 'live pins'.

The difference is the RST and similar (say, BS EN 61936-2 Type 2 plug and socket-outlet) is that the "live pins" are shielded.

In fact, a BS EN 61936-2 Type 2 connector would be a great idea, it's a British Standard, already ...

mapj1 said:

A simple standard connector , either that one or perhaps blue and weatherproof, with a flap over the socket when not in use on its own 16/20 or 32A  radial circuit perhaps.. If only such a thing existed !

And if you don't already have one fitted, your local camping supplies company will sell you an adapter lead with a 13A plug on the end!

No the Weiland would  fine by '7671, on its own suitably fused or breakered final circuit, and is actually exactly the sort of thing I'd far prefer to see on every new house; 'plug in solar ready' but our plug and socket regs make it really awkward to sell something to plug into anything that is not a 13A socket for use at home.

My point was that the plug and socket regs do nothing but cause trouble  for this sort of application and for a few other things, of which the biggest is caravans and outdoor power generally.

Now we no longer really have a mish-mash of 3 5 and 15A round pin plugs in common use,I reckon the 13A only rules could be safely de-fanged or even just repealed - and already for owners of caravans and workshops they are already widely ignored.

I'm less sure about BS EN IEC 61936-2:2023 Power installations exceeding 1 kV AC and 1,5 kV DC, as I'm not sure I've ever seen the connector that relates, or perhaps there is a numerical typo ?

Mike

Is a conventional 13A (or other) plug on this kind of thing really a problem that needs solving? These grid-tied inverters presumably do what they say on the box and won't keep pumping out juice once disconnected from the grid - in which case the live pins issue is a non-issue (at least no more than it would be with some conventional appliances which might leave the supply connected to capacitors or receive back EMF from a spinning down motor). In many respects these things aren't at all like conventional generators - it's only our insistence on using the word "generator" to describe them that's causing the problem. Call them, say, a negative load appliance, and things might fall into place more easily

   - Andy.

mapj1 said:

And there we need to modify or repeal the plug and socket regulations

If the Government wants to get these things on to the UK market, it can quite easily amend the Regulations. However, I suspect that there are other matters at the front of its collective mind.

gkenyon said:

Can't be used to connect a generator to an installation without a "changeover switch", and even there, the thing on the wall would be a "plug" ... certainly no good for parallel operation because of possible 'live pins'.

We are discussing plug-in balcony solar systems, which have the inverter connected to a plug with exposed pins, so in this situation the IEC60309 plug/socket would be used in the same way, the inverter connected to the plug, relying on the inverter's design and protective measures to only energise the plug once connected to a supply. The supply from the fixed wiring would be connected to the socket.

What you are describing is the arrangement for conventional portable generators, where the generator provides a continuous supply on the outgoing terminals from the generator, which quite rightly would require the use of an in-line socket on the generator side, connecting to a fixed plug on the fixed wiring side, where to ensure safety then necessitating a change-over or other protective arrangements such that the fixed plug pins are never live when exposed. This doesn't apply to these types of plug-in balcony solar system though.  

gkenyon said:

In fact, a BS EN 61936-2 Type 2 connector would be a great idea, it's a British Standard, already .

Did you mean a BS EN 62196-2 Type 2 connector i.e. an EV charging plug? I would suggest the large size of the plug/socket design would make it impracticable for the application and arguably, significantly over-engineered and costly. It's designed for repeated use, replicating the look and feel of a petrol pump.

One feature of that design, and some IEC60309 plug/sockets, which could be useful is the use of a 'pilot pin' to control when the supply is energised.

But this is all getting rather complicated, the RST plug/socket or something equivalent looks a good, efficient solution and it's compact.

At risk of sounding political, there is a cost of living crisis. How much are these things going to cost? Whilst those on limited incomes would benefit most from "free" electricity, how will they afford them in the first place?

A new socket-inlet hardly helps.

At risk of sounding political, there is a cost of living crisis. How much are these things going to cost? Whilst those on limited incomes would benefit most from "free" electricity, how will they afford them in the first place?

A new socket-inlet hardly helps.

Chris Pearson said:

At risk of sounding political, there is a cost of living crisis. How much are these things going to cost? Whilst those on limited incomes would benefit most from "free" electricity, how will they afford them in the first place?

It's all politics.

Some of the issues with cost of living crisis is the result of policies.

Doesn't help also that policies around energy permit energy trading at different levels that also affect prices. This has been brought about by policies (for good or bad).

Some county councils have invested in renewable energy for the benefit of people in their area ... others have not. Again, political policy at a local level.

etc.

The cost of living crisis is partly to do with the rising cost of energy which helps to raise inflation.

A lot of people don't know or understand that oil in part makes electricity in the uk.  Nuclear does the stable daily amount and oil/gas make up the fluctuations eg when people put the kettle on in the tv advert break so to speak.   Wind/solar  and renewables make up still a small percentage of uk energy.

So when there is Geo-Political issues like the closure of the Strait of Hormuz or russia invades yes invading Ukraine then the price of oil rises and thus UK energy cost go up and so does inflation.  People need to understand that as a nation we buy in a lot of our energy from abroad and that is the start of our fundamental issue.  We have the North Sea it has oil and we should use/drill/extract our own oil and gas.  The oil and gas is also used for the production of a lot of plastics and other petro chemicals.

Many people is America do NOT want the war with Iran but American companies are profiting from it.  Especially the US stock market.  Over the last 6 months, the American stock market has seen significant growth and reached record highs. The S&P 500 has surged roughly 13% in rolling six-month returns, while the Dow Jones has climbed over 50K points and the tech-heavy Nasdaq has advanced above 26K points.  

The UK government needs a think tank (other committee names are available)  to look at this and simply get the UK makeing energy and storing energy.  The energy needs to be shifted across the UK with only a moments notice which at the moment it can’t as the links between England and Scotland are already at capacity which is why we see many wind turbine stationary.  Old army/airforce bases could be used as locations for energy storage farms that are connect to the national grid.

The problem with the North sea oil of course is that it is old hat. Since 1970 we have taken out a touch under 50 billion barrels equivalent (volumes change pre/post refinement and separation of water hence 'equivalent' ) It made us very wealthy in the 1980s and 90s. and we outsourced a lot of industry while our GDP and exchange rate was propped up (up to 5% of GDP was oil and gas for many years)
Now mostly gone, and the great 'new' opportunities, like Rosebank and a couple of others offer perhaps up to 1 more Billion barrels between them, which will stem the decline for a couple of years. (for comparison right now Saudi Arabia do 3-4 billion barrels equiv per year, we squeeze out about 30 million a year, less than half of what we use - maybe less now .. )

Then we are back to having to buy in the rest (we need ) - so yes we should use it, but we should be aware that when its gone, its gone, and there is a balance - it may be even more valuable left so we have it in a few years time. Generally as much as poss we need to grab anything that is not fossil fuels whenever it is available - local batteries and  panels on flat roof extensions and balconies make a lot of sense in that wider picture, as do better inter-connectors.

Mike.

Wind/solar  and renewables make up still a small percentage of uk energy.

I wouldn't call 36% a small percentage - that's just wind and solar energy contribution to the total over last year - https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cz947djd3d3o

At times wind supplies over 50% of power, and solar is often over 30%.

   - Andy.

I do understand the concept of when the North Sea oil is depleated then that is it but as I have mention on this forum in the past we need to 

Increased HV transit capacity form Scotland to England 

Store energy in systems (multiples) the size of Wembley stadium and connect to the NG (National Grid)

Store energy in resovoirs

The UK government needs to look at it energy policy and get engineers and free thinker involved as some of the dicisions made by politiican are questionable.  As a casing point have you benefitted from Brexit?  Personally I am worse off after brexit, so are my local roads, so is my local hospital.  Brexit was a vehicle by politicians on how to Obfuscate the UK populus

But we really lack as a country a good way to store the energy for re-use.  We need a technology to re-sync it back into the National Grid

In fact, it looks like wind actually out-generated gas for the 2025 calendar year (from electricinsights.co.uk/ setting for the Sum for 1 Year starting 01/01/2025):

  - Andy.

Sergio Fernandez said:

As a casing point have you benefitted from Brexit? 

Although that came about not from political policy as such (IIRC the official policies of all the major parties at the time was to remain) but a popular vote (referendum). I suppose you could argue that a policy of not offering the people a direct vote in the matter might have been better. Mind you the population of most democracies seems to have a reputation of voting against the direct consequences of what they voted for last time - so things may change again at some point.

   - Andy.

I disagree

Politicians mislead the public as to what Brexit would do.  Everybody remembers the bus saying something like

We send the EU £350 million a week, let's fund our NHS instead" Vote Leave bus

Politicians mislead the public as to what Brexit would do

A minority of politicians perhaps - many others advised the exact opposite. One of the consequences allowing a debate and free speech I suppose. Many of the flaws in the arguments (both ways) were obvious even at the time. Voters are expected to be able to make up their own minds, rather than needing to be "guided" into what's thought to be best for them. Surely every voter understands that there are different points of view and "statistics" can be presented in different ways to match different points of views.

   - Andy.