Bathroom appliance help please

mapj1 said:

However, even then it might be unwise, for reasons of  damp and perhaps machines rusting away.

At one time, I would have supported this perspective, and certainly up to the early 1980s, many machines on the UK market didn't do well in a bathroom environment.

However, in today's global market, things are a little different.

Many countries in Europe think having dirty laundry in the kitchen is quite disgusting, and bathrooms are a common place to find washing machines and tumble dryers. Machines are therefore now made with that use case in mind, it being relatively common in the European market at a whole. 

Also, I hope many bathrooms today are better-ventilated than those in the 1970s, or can be made so quite easily (if one has the correct certification to do that work, of course).

gkenyon said:

Many countries in Europe think having dirty laundry in the kitchen is quite disgusting, and bathrooms are a common place to find washing machines and tumble dryers. Machines are therefore now made with that use case in mind, it being relatively common in the European market at a whole. 

Personally I'd love to have my washing machine and tumble drier in the bathroom (if it was big enough) but at the moment the washing machine is in the kitchen and my tumble dryer lives in my shed 

UK washing machines and UK tumble dryers are not designed for use in UK bathrooms which contain a bath and/or shower.  They will rust very quickly and internal parts will fail quicker.  There is also the very IMPORTANT point of a 230v nominal electrical item in a humid/damp environment which is unsafe even if a correctly selected and correctly functional RCBO (Type A minimum) is present.


The most viable option in the UK for location of washing machine/tumble dryer outside of a kitchen/utility room would be a WC (Water Closet).  As always there are caveats
Size of room
Ventilation/Humidity extraction
Power supply to the room with RCBO Type A minimum
Splash protection from basin
Water supply with an isolation valve and a non-return/double check valve
Some may require a surge arrestor (often called a water hammer arrestor)

Hopefully most people already have a water supply and waste management in the WC.

environment which is unsafe 

230V need not be unsafe in bathrooms, - and  if you travel to the continent you will see normal French and Schucko style sockets in bathrooms for hairdryers shavers and toothbrush chargers, and their accident figures bear out this is no more dangerous.  Generally though bathrooms are bigger - after all it leaves room for the washing machine to be that bit further from the edge of the shower tray or bath tub ! 
I agree it needs some thought and wiring maybe a problem if done willy nilly, but its not unsafe if done properly

next version, the zones extend 60 mm into walls and partitions 

That will be interesting -unless there are some caveats for thin walls.. For owners of 'park homes' i.,e static caravans, that makes the wall in another room that backs onto the bathroom a no- go area for wiring, as the walls may be only 50mm thick. It will be bad enough for those oil crisis era 1970s homes where the internal wall  blockwork is 75mm built on the floorboards - surface pattreses only perhaps

Still made actually and sold for for internal walls, need a bit more skill to lay than the more common 100mm ones
https://buildingshop.co.uk/product/aerated-blocks-standard-3-6n-75mm-thermalite-celcon/

"Versatile Applications: Perfect for both load-bearing and non-load-bearing walls, infill panels, and various renovation projects. The 75mm thickness is commonly used for internal partitions and inner leaves where space and thermal value are key considerations."

Funny, as I'm sure in my house, which has a lot of them, the main factor for the builder's decision was 'cheaper', but they don't mention that at all in the blurb !
It 's already a pain if you need a 50mm back box for a cooker or something, you need to be very careful not to come right through.

Mike

 Countries like Germany, Type AC RCDs and RCBOs (which only detect pure sinusoidal AC fault currents) were officially deprecated for general human protection against electrical shocks in 1987.  Thus can we really use the full extent of Harmonized Document in the UK or do we just interpret and implement the intent of said Harmonized Document?

Sergio Fernandez said:

There is also the very IMPORTANT point of a 230v nominal electrical item in a humid/damp environment

Even condensing tumble driers seem to expel some water vapour.

In any event bathrooms must have a minimum level of ventilation under Part F of the Building Regulations.

Chris Pearson said:

In any event bathrooms must have a minimum level of ventilation under Part F of the Building Regulations.

I agree on a new build but there is a substantial stock of 1920/30's 3 bed semi in the UK that have had sustantial material change to the building that do not comply with Part F of the Building Regulations.

The other point worthy of note is under normally working conditions and under fault or appliance fault conditions.  Potential in scope could be External Influences fault conditions

Sergio Fernandez said:

UK washing machines and UK tumble dryers are not designed for use in UK bathrooms which contain a bath and/or shower.  They will rust very quickly and internal parts will fail quicker.  There is also the very IMPORTANT point of a 230v nominal electrical item in a humid/damp environment which is unsafe even if a correctly selected and correctly functional RCBO (Type A minimum) is present.

I'm not sure AMDEA (Association of Manufacturers of Domestic Electrical Appliances) agree 100 %. See Section 7 of their guidance here: https://www.amdea.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2020/06/Appliances-in-bathrooms_July09.pdf

That doesn't mean all manufacturers agree ... check the instructions.

I agree that a tumble dryer will be less efficient if the bathroom (or kitchen) is humid.

Please also consider that, when we are boiling water etc. in kitchens, kitchens also get very humid, and water often condenses behind (and in) large laundry and dishwashing appliances in kitchens (not though with fridge/freezer, because they are expelling heat much of the time).

Sergio Fernandez said:

I agree on a new build but there is a substantial stock of 1920/30's 3 bed semi in the UK that have had sustantial material change to the building that do not comply with Part F of the Building Regulations.

Kitchen same though ... certainly in my 1930s house ... without the extractor, cooker hood, and trickle vents, both of those rooms would be sodden in winter.

gkenyon said:

if a correctly selected and correctly functional RCBO (Type A minimum) is present.

Would  AMDEA (Association of Manufacturers of Domestic Electrical Appliances) understand the RCBO type and why some countries like Germany deprecated type AC use over 30 years ago?

Sergio Fernandez said:

 Countries like Germany, Type AC RCDs and RCBOs (which only detect pure sinusoidal AC fault currents) were officially deprecated for general human protection against electrical shocks in 1987.

I don't think the situation is that ALL type AC RCDs (or RCDs that pre-date BS EN 61008 series and BS EN 61009 series) are necessarily 'blinded' at all times by a switching converter. Certainly, according to the diagrams in Figure A53.1, it's only where the electrical fault occurs on the load side of the converter for many appliances. Granted, that could be a leaking washing machine or boiler, but the RCD will work for other faults until that point, for example.

We can also get tied up in knots if we aren't careful. For example, there were no EMC tests in BS 4293 (or BS 7288 prior to a certain point). Similarly, even where EMC tests were done, EMC tests develop over time as the electromagnetic spectrum has been used and abused differently with the development of technology. ...  so how do you know your particular RCD/RCBO/SRCD will actually operate correctly when exposed to the EM environment in a home with modern appliances, WiFi, etc.? 

Sergio Fernandez said:

 Countries like Germany, Type AC RCDs and RCBOs (which only detect pure sinusoidal AC fault currents) were officially deprecated for general human protection against electrical shocks in 1987.

I don't think the situation is that ALL type AC RCDs (or RCDs that pre-date BS EN 61008 series and BS EN 61009 series) are necessarily 'blinded' at all times by a switching converter. Certainly, according to the diagrams in Figure A53.1, it's only where the electrical fault occurs on the load side of the converter for many appliances. Granted, that could be a leaking washing machine or boiler, but the RCD will work for other faults until that point, for example.

We can also get tied up in knots if we aren't careful. For example, there were no EMC tests in BS 4293 (or BS 7288 prior to a certain point). Similarly, even where EMC tests were done, EMC tests develop over time as the electromagnetic spectrum has been used and abused differently with the development of technology. ...  so how do you know your particular RCD/RCBO/SRCD will actually operate correctly when exposed to the EM environment in a home with modern appliances, WiFi, etc.? 

gkenyon said:

I don't think the situation is that ALL type AC RCDs (or RCDs that pre-date BS EN 61008 series and BS EN 61009 series) are necessarily 'blinded' at all times by a switching converter. Certainly, according to the diagrams in Figure A53.1, it's only where the electrical fault occurs on the load side of the converter for many appliances.

Aren't there two sorts of possible 'blinding' going on here.

One being the possible back feed from the generating equipment through to the trip solenoid which wasn't disconnected by the fault disconnection.

The other being the effective rectified DC components from switching supplies/converters/generators which could saturate the sense coil (current transformer) and fail to drive the trip solenoid at the trip level.