Help inform our next campaign

I wasn't trying to suggest that the issue relates to engineering as a career, for me that is pretty much being addressed and I observe improvements daily (anecdotal - better informed questions being asked by potential course candidates and their parents in FE) . 

I was trying to highlight that there are numerous campaigns already in existence and growing, some better than others, and yes, the review probably needs to be revisited. However, I do think that with any campaign it has to be wholly inclusive, not just one group or another. Young people in FE and apprentices at L3 and 4 feel disenfranchised because there is a lot for those pre-engineering and those at undergraduate and graduate level (apprentices do not, whatever opinion might otherwise suggest, earn a lot of money and thus may need additional financial support). So again, we need to consider the inbetweeners? Those who do not follow the A'Level/T'Level, degree route; those outliers who may go on to be fantastic engineers, whatever diversity group they fit into.

Not working in engineering. I am a CEng and have not really worked in engineering for many years. The reasons why are

1. Got made redundant twice
2. Many applicable jobs require travel - which I can't do due to caring responsibilities 
3. Jobs also require quite a lot of out of normal work hours/ last minute responses

All of these make it hard for women (and many men) with children to work in the sector - especially after I was widowed. Now I'm older and my children are mostly grown up  I have an elderly parent to care for so still can't do much travel or out of hours work.  

I'm a pretty good engineer and would love to come back to it  - but until the sector offers family friendly work it is going to rule out many people (not just women - men want to care for their families too. )

So employers -  be a bit more realistic when you are recruiting and don't make people redundant so often  

Andy Millar: 
 

Simon Barker: 
 

Rob Eagle: 
 

I quite agree with you Matthew, the IET is more like a student union these days with their relentless ‘Woke' nonsense, I am seriously thinking of not renewing my membership and leaving after 30 years, I don't recognise it anymore as an engineering institution.

I'm sure the IET will carry on fine without you.

Rob Eagle:
 

Simon Barker:  What an unpleasant thing to say to a fellow engineer.

As I have stated before on this thread, I find that left leaning people, people who feel that they occupy the moral high ground, are the most intolerant of other people’s opinion.

Rob,

None of us might like it, but Simon's post is factually correct. Any of us can leave if we don't like what “the IET” (whatever we take that to mean) is doing, it won't make a blind bit of difference to the IET (well, to be precise it will make 1 / 168,000 x 100% difference).

Heaven knows, I spent 10 years avoiding joining the (then) IEE because I perceived it - rightly or wrongly - as a club where I would not feel comfortable being a member. It seemed to survive alright without me. And since then have often felt like leaving for similar reasons. (I suspect for reasons diametrically opposed to yours, but of course I don't know that. And it's quite possible that if "the IET" is annoying both of us then then it's probably doing the right thing!) 

Now, until recently, my problem was that I didn't have any other choice to maintain my professional registration (I, and I believe you as well as I think you work in the same field as myself and Peter, could now maintain it through another relevant institution if I wished). But I would hope the IET would completely ignore that and concentrate on the profession as a whole.

Including canvassing the widest range of views possible, which as SMW says is exactly what they are doing here. But of course it's up to individuals whether they engage with that process, however those who don't engage can't complain about not having their opinions listened to.

My bigger concern is, and has always been, the huge percentage of the engineering profession who do not consider the IET, or any other PEI, worth joining - there are far more engineers in the UK outside the PEIs than inside them. That suggests to me that we may well have a diversity issue ourselves, that it is possible that people who join PEIs (and remain in them) are the type of people who join PEIs, not necessarily representative of the engineering profession.

That said, I had better disengage from this myself as it's a busy week in the day job coming up…

Thanks,

Andy

 

A Tweet from John Cleese:

A lot of woke behaviours seem to me posturing ; striking attitudes that allow them to experience the lovely, warm glow of moral superiority, while justifying their own aggression by using denial-and-projection defences

You disagree with the Foothold program of financial assistance? And the financial support for apprentices and students? 

Are they available to all regardless of ethnicity and gender?  If not then I disagree with it and all such racist and sexist ‘initiatives’.

I agree with Morgan Freeman - if you want to stop these issues then stop talking about it, highlighting it and changing it to a belief even though it is being tackled.

However, that does not advocate burying one's head in the sand.  Monitor the landscape and act where there ARE problems, including White Male Un-Privilege which,  due to Wokeness, is infecting much of society.

Gillacey: 
 

BTW, one area that has improved in 40 years is in the area of misogyny. Maybe its respect due to my age, but I get hardly any comments around my my lack of skills/knowledge/authority being because of my gender, whereas they were commonplace in my twenties

I agree it definitely does seem to be improving, from the other side as a male I have the dubious pleasure of hearing the “locker room banter”, and it has changed hugely over the last 40 years - the length (so far) of my career.  Nice to have a bit of optimism for a Monday morning, thank you ?

But in my experience not quite there yet, it still does seem to depend on which field / sector you work in. In my field, the rail industry, the attitude in the offices has changed hugely, I understand that the attitude on site sometimes less so.  But of course that's the aim of this work, to try to find the reality behind this anecdotal opinion.

 Thanks,

Andy

Just wanted to keep this separate from my above post: I took part in one one of the interviews as part of this work on Friday afternoon. It was excellent, I would really really recommend anyone interested in this issue (from ANY point of view) to respond to Natalie's post above, I'm not sure if there may still be time to take part?

Thanks,

Andy 

Simon Barker: 
 

Rob Eagle: 
 

I quite agree with you Matthew, the IET is more like a student union these days with their relentless ‘Woke' nonsense, I am seriously thinking of not renewing my membership and leaving after 30 years, I don't recognise it anymore as an engineering institution.

I'm sure the IET will carry on fine without you.

Rob Eagle:
 

Simon Barker:  What an unpleasant thing to say to a fellow engineer.

As I have stated before on this thread, I find that left leaning people, people who feel that they occupy the moral high ground, are the most intolerant of other people’s opinion.

Rob,

None of us might like it, but Simon's post is factually correct. Any of us can leave if we don't like what “the IET” (whatever we take that to mean) is doing, it won't make a blind bit of difference to the IET (well, to be precise it will make 1 / 168,000 x 100% difference).

Heaven knows, I spent 10 years avoiding joining the (then) IEE because I perceived it - rightly or wrongly - as a club where I would not feel comfortable being a member. It seemed to survive alright without me. And since then have often felt like leaving for similar reasons. (I suspect for reasons diametrically opposed to yours, but of course I don't know that. And it's quite possible that if "the IET" is annoying both of us then then it's probably doing the right thing!) 

Now, until recently, my problem was that I didn't have any other choice to maintain my professional registration (I, and I believe you as well as I think you work in the same field as myself and Peter, could now maintain it through another relevant institution if I wished). But I would hope the IET would completely ignore that and concentrate on the profession as a whole.

Including canvassing the widest range of views possible, which as SMW says is exactly what they are doing here. But of course it's up to individuals whether they engage with that process, however those who don't engage can't complain about not having their opinions listened to.

My bigger concern is, and has always been, the huge percentage of the engineering profession who do not consider the IET, or any other PEI, worth joining - there are far more engineers in the UK outside the PEIs than inside them. That suggests to me that we may well have a diversity issue ourselves, that it is possible that people who join PEIs (and remain in them) are the type of people who join PEIs, not necessarily representative of the engineering profession.

That said, I had better disengage from this myself as it's a busy week in the day job coming up…

Thanks,

Andy

A couple of things. Despite all the Excellent work done by WIE and others, it is really difficult to get young women and girls to consider engineering. Partly due to the dearth of physics teachers in schools, but that can be dealt with by simply requiring Maths level 3 qualification, but also with the general perception of engineering in the media.

All the recruitment brochures and so on have women on the front, so that doesn't seem to make much difference

I met a man in asocial situation and asked him what is occupation was, he told me he was an engineer. “really? me too!” I said, to the mixture of disbelief and fear on his face. turns out he sold lawnmowers to golf clubs, maintained them too. Now I would class him as a technician, along with the person who will someday respond to the following message on the hot pasty cabinet in my local co op. “ this machine is out of order, and engineer has been called to repair it”

Technicians require some physical strength and agility, neither of these things are necessary for a graduate engineer. We need to change the perception by changing the vocabulary we use.

BTW, one area that has improved in 40 years is in the area of misogyny. Maybe its respect due to my age, but I get hardly any comments around my my lack of skills/knowledge/authority being because of my gender, whereas they were commonplace in my twenties

I too was a Maths (Mathematical Sciences) Graduate, but in the 1990s.  The split between Male and Female was not noticeably skewed, and ethnic origin was not something I could comment on as it really wasn't an issue and I can't even picture how it looked.

I completed a MSc in Cyber Security last year and my class was more than 75% “ethnic minority” and less than 10% female with only one woman.

Personally, I think these diversity issues are created by an overwhelming desire to be seen as awake to these [non-] issues, which are actually creating the opposite situation, which could be called “white unprivileged”.

Perhaps all that we need to ensure is that memberships/attendances profiles fit closely enough to the social profiles of of those who apply for/work in the various areas of interest.  I would then say it is likely more down to getting coverage and exposure across the field rather than any ethnic or gender “privilege”.