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What do I expect from IET – Community - France & Paris.

Former Community Member over 8 years ago

Firstly who are the IET Fr MIET members?

I joined this PEI in 1980 from Grenoble. I was on substantive leave from MoD. I decided to stay for a longer period and got married here. At that time we were the first to come over with the EU agreements of that period.

There were already ex-patriot UK people with huge benefits living here, there were the UK EU adventurers with no objectives but work was abundant, there were the first student exchanges, and some had married into French families. I did not meet any UK people who simply came here to live and work at that time.

Most of us found the difference between the UK and France as difficult as between the UK and China. They just did not live, eat or drink like us.

I was advised by the first UK settlers to just join in and enjoy myself, which I did.

I first met French culture when I organised the “entente cordiale” between the Concorde R&D groups of UK RAE and French ONERA. It was unbelievable, when the opportunity to have a job and career change came, I took up nuclear engineering in France.

I returned to the UK which had drastically changed – Thatcher, strikes, riots. My name was plagiarised in my work. I had to leave the UK after my employers failed to protect me. I returned to France.

The first time every one talked of the quality of life in France, the second time it was the Iraqi wars and crisis.

So what do you need to work and survive in France now and how can the IET French Community help.

France is huge; it is not realistic to travel from SE or SW France for a meeting in Paris.

Maybe we need a newcomers guide such as most French towns give to new arrivals.

France is still totally different from the UK.

We have different categories of IET members who are at least engineering & technology related.

-Ex-patriot, UK enterprise sales & marketing staff, Erasmus students, Enterprises from the UK that have delocalised with their staff, those that have married into families, entrepreneurs and SMEs in IT technology and those that now just want to work and live in France etc.

What would you advise

Should we have a MIET arrivals’ guide

Should we have guides to French language courses

Should we have guides to CPD in France

Should we give advice on French administration

What about the dos and don’ts of French culture.

Or should we just mind our own business and keep it to ourselves?

I recommend reading : Stephen Clarke – 1000 years of annoying the French and other titles and most of his references. French English history is not as taught in schools.

Out of season hotels in France are cheap, maybe one or two visits with IET families or friends to E&T venues could be affordable.

And the French Community AGM & voting should be on line and at distance.

I’m retiring from E&T have fun in France

Give Rob McCann some help

John Gowman MIET (ex ITEME Grenobl 1980)

0 Keith Parr over 7 years ago

David Houssein Brilliant, David <grin>. It's a shame I've been rumbled tho', I always open all of my IET emails multiple times, got to get the numbers up somehow!!!

More seriously, I find the stats a little worrying. First off, I don't really believe I opened that annual dinner email 15 times. Once certainly, maybe twice, just maybe three times, but 15? On top of which I believe Adestra relies on the fetching of embedded images from a central server to determine who opens what how many times. On my main machine I have fetching embedded images turned off, that leaves the phone and the tablet where it is turned on (note to self: gotta get that fixed!).

Thank you for making the time and taking the trouble to dig a bit deeper, I know it's a pain and time consuming but I believe it will lead to a better understanding of what we are doing.

From the numbers you quote, I don't believe I can answer the question I posed: what proportion of IET France members are not subscribed to emails? Of email delivery attempts pretty much all were successful (so bounces are not a serious issue), 34% of delivered messages were opened (sometimes quite frequently!), and 3% had links clicked (hopefully not the "unsubscribe" one!). One interpretation of what you say suggests that some 10% of members have unsubscribed, would this be a correct interpretation? The doubt arises because I don't know whether the list delivered from the IET systems to Adestra also excludes some unsubscribed members (ie in addition to the Adestra unsubscribe list).

Keith
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0 Former Community Member over 7 years ago

Ref -William Davis
I am a CEng MIET working in France. I work on the ITER project so my position is probably different from most other MIETs in France - if I leave ITER I don't intend to stay in France.
·         Is it useful for the IET to promote the IET as a brand in France? Promotion of EC(UK) registration in France would be more useful, but must be done with a single voice in combination with the other EC(UK) institutions
·         The most useful thing the IET could do in France is make it easy for us to contact other MIETs and members of other EC(UK) institutions in our local area - ICE, IMechE, BCS, even smaller ones like the Nuclear Institute and the Institution of Measurement and Control - otherwise I have to become a non-paying member of all these other institutions, and I don't even know if that is possible.
·         Personally I would prefer that there was a single professional engineering institution for EC(UK) registration, not split up into IET, BCS, IMechE, ICE, etc. A separate institution for each engineering discipline is just overly complicated and dilutes the community and public voice of our profession. Even if we can't manage this in the UK, please can we at least make this possible in other countries?

William,

Your suggestion was the objective of I Mech I E which amalgamated with other PEIs outside of the major CEng PEIs, small institutes did the same and we came together to form IIE which was a CEng & IEng PEI and then with IEE we created IET.
The I Mec E and the Civil engineers put a stop to this amalgamation.
We wanted a “Groupement d’Interet”- no word for that in English, it is a group of companies working on a single project without binding contracts.
I have suggested an umbrella organization and UKEC is not disagreed with that idea. Prof EFF has suggested much the same.
In Europe the UK PEI’s and other professional associations are meeting and working together. It seems that the UK will not accept any form of change to the Professional Registration whilst the PEIs want to be independent and dominant.

You work for ITER, I was nominated engineer in charge at JET as I had saved the project from blocking points on five occasions. I do not know if you are a contractor or an EU ITER employee. You should make it clear that you have, apart from the best job in the world, a return ticket to the UK. We lesser mortals have to fight the markets and politicians to survive.

ITER, ILL, CERN are the best examples of Engineering & Technology with equal national and gender status. This is supposed to be IET’s goal. But like all big projects IET has gone through the first phase; is being modified in the second phase; and will be taken over by staff and CEng Electricals in the third stage - as on most big projects. This is why EURATOM, CERN, ILL reorganize and start afresh every so often. The model cannot be kept up-with from the first day.

IET, ECUK, & PEI’s will have to change or they will be changed externally or internally.

What we are seeing in Europe is the first stage of change, market forces will take over from the status quo. If we need to communicate and cooperate as engineering & technology professionals, we will do so with or without HQ.

Let’s look at ITER; The House of Lords has said it is Cloud Cuckoo Land, Cowley says he will never see Fusion energy (he resigned), Llewellyn-Smith says it will work, but not efficiently, in 2050.
I will not give my point of view here.

So what is so good about ITER?

It is the holistic effect of putting together several hundred of the world’s top technologies with the best technologists it can find. Do they believe in Fusion? It is not important, what is important is developing leading technology together ( there are better ways of doing this but no one has succeeded).
What ITER is doing, is what this blog is trying to do – put together technologists from all domains to communicate and cooperate; in Europe, outside of the UK restrictions.
We are not interested in Asia or elsewhere, we are interested in ourselves and our technologies. We are in unfamiliar ground and not helped by the systems where we live. Some have made a break and others are sitting tight and not integrating.

My question was; is it worth having an IET outpost in France (& Europe); for what objective and is it realistic or worthwhile?
At ITER you have everything.
I have had no contact with UK PEIs and I have made a good effort to integrate into Technology in France, ( I cannot give details). I have seen many give up and go back to the UK.

I’ve got the ball rolling, what you have said sums up the situation.
Members have to do what they want to do, we are not a club, we are like minded professionals and in France we have liberty, seek fraternity and would like equality with Grande Ecoles.
I think the replies on this blog have exposed the problem, the difficulties and there is a team willing to organize and communicate.

I’m bowing now.
John Gowman.
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0 Michael Wrigley over 7 years ago

Kindly note that I have unsubscribed from this thread for two reasons.

Firstly, it is quite clear that HQ does not want to understand that communications with members are not as they would like to believe. I looked up my first posts on this and find that nothing has evolved in TWO YEARS. Whether we are talking LN, Communities, Sectors, HQ staff have no idea about the effectiveness of the communication tools and don't seem to want to know.

Secondly, one Member has been bashing our ears with his personal blog without ever offering, now, in the past nor in the future, to participate in IET France LN organisation. Some of what he writes is insulting to past and present volunteers and if nobody is prepared to blow the whistle I have to take my own precaution.
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0 Former Community Member over 7 years ago

Michael Wrigley:

1. Firstly, it is quite clear that HQ does not want to understand that communications with members are not as they would like to believe. I looked up my first posts on this and find that nothing has evolved in TWO YEARS.

2. Whether we are talking LN, Communities, Sectors, HQ staff have no idea about the effectiveness of the communication tools and don't seem to want to know.

1. Communications really are what we believe. I can't really help you if you value your own anecdotal evidence over the vast data we have access to.

2. Sorry to have to call you out in a public way, but we have to consider that many members may be reading this and believe it to be true if it goes unchallenged. We do know the effectiveness and the evidence of that has been presented just a few posts back. You are seriously bringing into question the competence and integrity of my team and it is highly insulting to state, like it's actually a fact, that we do not want to know either. I don't really know how you reach these conclusions, but I would ask you to substantiate any further claims.

For closure, we had a closer look at your profile and found that you updated your address in January 2017 and CZ then became your primary network. This meant that the system, quite reasonably, assumes that you don't want to know about France anymore. If you do, you can now simply go into MyIET and select France as a secondary network. That will resolve this for you.

Can I suggest this thread now gets back on track? Getting into the detail on individual agendas is probably going to discourage others from getting involved.
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0 Former Community Member over 7 years ago

To
communities.

I have complained about
Mr Wrigley after checking the net. You dumped my
complaint.

The net has no interest
in document management, so there are out of date references to
Michael which would confuse most people.

I would call him a modern
European entrepreneur, an electron libre who is based in the UK and
CK probably for fiscal and professional reasons.

His comments are on the
limit, for example Diesel cars having access to Paris for IET
meetings, there are Critères to respect, if you do not have a
critère your car
will be impounded and you have to pay 130€ fine. He has no critère;
I have critère 5 and am no longer allowed in Paris on working
days.

The whole idea of LN and
communities has to be re-examined.

It has been my work for
the last 15 years to “surveille” complicated engineering projects,
and organizations . IET needs to do the same.

IET has drifted away from
its ideals in 2006, You staff members work to IET management rules
so no one can complain, but IET has failed in the UK, as I have
said, we have lost the IEng ideal, we are not recruiting the 3
million no registered PEs and the UK treatment of women is
disgraceful.

~~You~~
The IET Direction has
taken a path that no longer interests me, and as a founder member
of engineering & technology, at ITEME >>> IIE I see no
real interest in its ideals of globalization,
commoditization CEng and electrical hegemony all leading to
rival and obstructive communities in the UK, Europe and
worldwide.

I have to agree with both
IET staff and Michael Wrigley.

My interest is that young
professional of both genders, at all grades and with sound links
with the UK should be registered on an PE register in the UK
without referees, proposers and assossors. (I have applied for C
Eng on five occasions from France through other PEIs and have been
refused) I should be CEng. I have refused IIE Honary membership as
I could not find the means to apply my self to IET and to keeping a
professional status in Europe.

Working in Europe is
tough if you do it on your own.

I was nominated to run
the IIE as “Secretary” and stood down to let a woman have a chance.
She seems to be one of the IET top staff now.

The French LN – Please
have IET legal dept check out in detail what I say from
experience.

This is a complicated set
up as Michael has stated. We are an association
under the law 1901; this means that any person of any origin social
status, education or gender cannot be refused membership. We have
to present the accounts to the French authorities each year the
association is liable to its owner who takes full responsibility
for the legal actions of the association.

In no way can LN IET
France be influenced or controlled by an outside foreign body. Thus
IET has no say in IET community France.

This associations was
called IEE what its status and name is now I have no
idea.

I do not know who is a
member of the French association IEE I have not been invited to
vote for the executive.

We have your LN which is
the French communities. This is what HQ is concerned
about.

It is what happens in
France. But you have no rite under French law to have a private
association which is not an Association Law 1901.

This is why I said our
president could be at risk in France, the consequences of not
respecting the law 1901 is a bit like treason in France. Do not
forget we have Riots & Revolutions here, Mai 68 spoilt my
holidays.

I have not been able to
contact IET France until Lisa sent me an email a few years ago when
she ran the French LN communication. I have voted twice for the Fr
LN committee, I have been a member here since 1880 – 83 & 1991
to now, I joined the Fr LN two years ago.

UK IET members resident
in France are expatriots with full advantages, UK government
financed R&D staff, of major projects, workers transferred here
with no options but to accept, and entrepreneurs who a testing
Europe and of course those who are married into or have French
families.

There are probably twice
as many PEs here who are not members of PEIs not CEng or IEng and
are contract or short term employees of engineering or sales
companies. Most of the two groups have great difficulty in
participating in IET france because the country is very big and
transport is difficult if you do not go to Paris.

We just went for a day at
the sea side 8 hours transport and 840 KM.

Your solutions are not
easy.

1.
Do a Kaisen 5S

2.
Do nothing; leave
things as they are

3.
Set up a Paris
office of democratically voted (IET French residents)

4.
Let only French resident
MIETs be voting members

5.
Let Rob and other multi
card PEI holders organize joint PEI events with universities and
major enterprises.

6.
Run all events from HQ
UK

7.
Use MIET volunteers
organize events and call on HQ to do the ground work

Why not run down all EU
LNs set up LN EU from the UK; let multi card PEI holders organize
joint PEI events with universities and major
enterprises?

IET has a major problem
with IT communication, you might think it is all working well, LN
Fr members are not being informed.

I will not use social
networks, I think many have the same attitude.

·  Those that want to and
have time to can volunteer

* We only need to
vote once a year for the LN if it is in France or the
UK.

·
We need to know, well in
advance if there are any interesting events we could possibly
attend.

·
New comers need to know
of the pitfalls of living in Europe.

·
They need to know of CPD
possibilities in France I undertook much of my CPD in France with
leading organizations.

·
They need to know how to
learn French ( I learnt French after GCE O Level in 3
months)

IIE had no office in
France – we did not really need one, we had a very good journal and
I would think that most people lived too far away to make personal
contact. I am not sure that I would want to make personal contact
any way.

I have written to the
President, to membership and have been ignored.

I have written to ECUK
and they agree with me but have no right to take any action
concerning the running of PEIs If we had the UK 2016 Engineering
review and Prof Eff’s report which was very damaging, there is a
real problem with IET and all PEIs in the UK.

I see the Uk residents
holding joint PEI meetings all across Europe as a very good
solution to the PEI decline and mismanagement.

We need a 5S of the
whole system.

My job was to pin-point
the errors and hidden vices, I reported to my superiors who
reported to the President (of france). He took action
immediately.

Let’s close this blog and
see some positive action.

John Gowman
MIET

British, resident
in France, too far away from Paris
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0 Former Community Member over 7 years ago
To communities & LN MIET France

Last communication to Communities HQ & France.

Commoditization:, selling something which previously had no value but is now commoditized for profit.

IET membership France LN and CEng Europe.

Solution

LN France run by volunteers in France, but registered and administered from IET HQ UK.

Let IET members in Europe be FEANI registered Eur IEngwith BSc University degrees.

LN France is for MIETs who reside or work in France only.

Comments & observations.
There were at least members from IEE and ITEME resident in France in 1980; this is as far back as we need to go as these people will have reached the 67 years of age retirement age.
ITEME members had no EU LN, They were UK registered PEs and any other Title was useless in Europe, some were FEANI members before FEANI changed to create EUR Ing.
IEE had a French LN seat.
IET changed the situation.

Now we do not know how many LN Fr registered MIET actually reside in France, or where the concentration of numbers lies.
IET LN Fr is French registered 1901 Association and an also IET Community. This is confusing to say the least.
I have called for a clarification and reorganization that meets: EU, French & UK legislation for professional associations.

Firstly :

Let’s get LN France back to promoting Engineering & Technology for all grades, genders for MIET resident in or working with or in France.

Then make this the rule for all IET LN in Europe – before BREXIT.

Get back to IET basics set out in 2006.

As CEng or IENG or Eng Tech is only useful for those who wish to return to the UK or work with the UK; promote Eur Ing FEANI for all who want a registered PE title in Europe, this can be achieved with BSc and HQ will help any MIET who is interested.

The French LN should go back to UK PE basics and help non University MEng or BSc PEs to follow the long route for CEng or IEng UK ECUK PE registration or even the possible new registration of Professional Engineer.

Make a geographical survey of member’ domiciles and make it public without breaking any IT security laws. In France marketing asks you for your Department Number, IET could do the same.

MIET Volunteers resident in France could continue, as before, with their administration carried out by IET paid staff in Communities HQ UK.
It is probably a fair statement to say that the Fr LN cannot be organized as in the UK or Benelux, as France is a huge country and communication is poor.
The LNs in Europe are showing ECUK and the UK PEIs how to cooperate, communicate and work together with their combined PEI, University and International industrial groups’ seminars and meetings.
Technology visits can be conceived in France and organized by IET Communities, being open to all members, staff and other interested bodies.

In conclusion,
LN France can be run legally from HQ UK without changing the setup we have today.
All MIET domiciled in France should be informed of LN Fr elections and meetings.
This should not involve IT tools that no one knows of or is interested in. An Email is sufficient, or a mention in Members’ News sent by the post.
Why not give the results of the LN Fr survey on residents’ departments in Members’ News.

Why make it complicated when you can make it simple.
Or just stay as we are.

John Gowman, MIET, British, resident in France
EU Classification : EU industrial vagabond ( has this changed now?)
This includes Gypsies and PEs working outside of their EU homeland.

JGowman, MIET Member registered in France since 1980 probably one of IET’s longest EU LN members still professionally active. I have only met one person from IET in France and that was Rob last year.
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What do I expect from IET – Community - France & Paris.

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