Wind versus Coal

An interesting little side piece in E+T.  It will require 233  5 MW wind turbines to replace one 500 MW coal fired power station. This will occupy 55 square mile. This is also assuming quite a high capacity factor of nearly 43% but I will keep to the quoted numbers.

 

I am not sure if it is viable /sensible to build new coal fired power stations. The Chinese and the Indians certainly think that it is. So to look at the nuclear option:

To replace a 3 MW nuclear power plant with 2 EPR units, Hinkley point C or Sizewell C, will require 330 square miles to be filled with wind turbines (maybe more depending on the wake effect).

www.wind-energy-the-facts.org/wake-effect.html

This is more than twice the area of the Isle of Wight, not impossible but politically very difficult.

The more important question is the resources required. It is difficult to find numbers for the concrete and steel requirements for wind turbines. I do understand that this is affected by the ground conditions and foundation requirements however some number exist in this 2011 document.

pubs.usgs.gov/.../sir2011-5036.pdf

Table 5, page 12,  gives 100 tonnes of steel per MW and 400 tonnes of concrete per MW.  So to replace Hinkley Point C will, according to Kurt Cobb, require 6990 MW of wind turbines.

Steel 6990 * 100 tonnes  = 699 000 tonnes

Concrete 6990 * 400 tonnes = 2 796 000 tonnes.

The quoted figures for Hinkley Point C are:

Steel 280 000 tonnes

Concrete 3 000 000 tonnes.

https://www.newcivilengineer.com/innovative-thinking/projects-innovation-drives-hinkley-point-c-16-01-2019/

https://chamberuk.com/chrisfayers/

So similar amounts of concrete and a lot less steel for Hinkley Point C. The NPP has an expected life span of 80 years, wind seems to be typically 20-25 years.

Hinkley Point C could also use a lot less materials, cost less and be on time if it was built somewhere other than the UK:

www.spectator.co.uk/.../

Is wind power a sensible use of our finite resources?

Parents
  • The land under a wind farm doesn't have to be concreted over.  Each turbine needs a concrete pad.  The rest can be grassed over and used to graze sheep or grow crops.

  • Not really much of an explosion in the US - population now about 320 million, vs 300 million in 2004. A ten percent increase in population over 15 years , mostly created by better life expectancy rather than high birth rate or migration,  and that is now very clearly levelling off if not reversing, does not have as much effect as the fact the last 4  years have been unusually dry !!

    More interesting is that the slower trend underlying the spikes is actually for more water, but some of that arrives all at once and in the wrong places.

    It is useful to look at the stats before leaping to conclusions.
    Mike.

  • https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m-m7FqV-uJg

    Roger

    Looks like the UK will be getting a bad storm next week --

    Peter 

  • Indeed, we already have official weather warnings issued  " UK will be affected by weather" slightly better than that sort of level of useful.


    Well I'm paraphrasing. "It will be windy on the coast..." may be fairer
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c2dxlwz219ko
    Mike.

  • Population expansion by immigration which Trump want to stop. 4 years weather  is just that. Climate is based on 30 year observations.

    You have to be very careful about the stats you apply.

  • What Trump wants to stop is ILLEGAL immigration. One can enter the US using legal means -either as a part time worker (usually farm labor) or permanent as a green card alien. There are also a number of other ways, usually related to regional wars or disasters.

    Peter Brooks

  • yes, but the bit of immigration Trump is wittering on about, is a very small part of the total, and the total  immigration a very small part of the total problem of supporting a nation with a large fraction of non workers, compared to longevity at one end and unemployed youth at the other.

    We are not immune from such distractions, we have Mr Farage over here who is equally fast and loose with  basic arithmetic, especially when it suits his agenda of blaming anyone except folk like himself and deliberately creating a "them" and "us" culture. Sadly a lot of the problems come from the folk in the "us" group.

    Mike

  • Hello Mike:

    I guess you were talking about the aging population problem - US families not having children and the updated mortality tables (used to calculate the required minimum pre-tax retirement with drawls) which indicate the longer projected lifetimes for seniors. By the way these tables also show a reduction in expected life times for younger people probably due to excessive deaths from drug use.

    The main reason for US families not having children is related to the cost of having kids. At the present time personal debt is a major problem (credit cards etc), even with both parents working full time.

    "Wall street" is projecting a bumper years for 2025 but I see major storm clouds ahead due to this personal debt problem.

    Peter Brooks

    Palm Bay Florida USA

     

  • The clouds have arrived Peter.

    In the uk male suicide is a major issue.

    Housing is unaffordable, wages haven't grown since the 2007/8 bank crisis, debt per capita runs at over 100K.

    On top of that we have a near bankrupt country run by idiots who think we can afford net zero and all it's deluded schemes.

    I've advised my kids not to reproduce as they'll be the poorest generation since the early 20th century. You may survive this current situation with kids but don't expect anything other than hard graft for the state.

    Lovely isn't it.

  • The problem isn't a few windmills.  If we all went back to driving steam powerd cars burning genuine British coal that wouldn't really solve anything.

    Most of the country is owned by a handful of very rich people.  Most of what's left is owned by Baby Boomers, who bought all the housing while it was still cheap*.  And if those same Baby Boomers were lucky enough to get a university education, it was paid for by the state**.  So people are now leaving university with tens of thousands of pounds in debt, and are forced to rent over-priced housing as they can never afford to buy.  Of course, all the council housing has been sold off.

    Then many of our businesses are falling into the hands of "venture capitalists", i.e. asset strippers.  A few years ago, if you bought a company, it was because you wanted it to grow into the biggest and best company in its industry.  Now the venture capitalists will buy a company with borrowed money.  Then sack thousands of workers, sell off the assets, and declare a huge dividend.  Then every year, they keep paying more dividends, while the company has to borrow money to keep going.  They may end up selling off what's left of the company, or else it goes bust.  Either way, the venture capitalists don't care because they took out more money from the company than they ever spent buying it.

    So our industry is being destroyed by people who only care about what dividends they get this quarter.  Meanwhile, the Chinese are taking over whole industry sectors from under our noses. And that includes batteries, solar power and electric cars.  All the new things replacing old industries.

    * I was born right at the end of the baby boom, so of course I have my own house, and the mortgage is paid off.

    ** When I was at university, the local education authority paid all my tuition fees, and I even got a small grant towards living expenses.

  • Thanks for that summary from your view.

    Chilling as it is.

    One does wonder where this all leads?

Reply Children
  • Hello Jon:

    Where does this all leads too?

    Adapt or die!. 

    Population migration, both internally and externally will cause major social stress and potential conflicts.

    Peter Brooks

    Palm Bay Florida 

    .  

  • One does wonder where this all leads?

    Well, the largest thing we leave for the future generations, in this case, and many others,  is the bill.

    Personally, I'm in a similar position to Simon, in terms of age and education, and have landed very much feet down. I'm not so sure my children will be able to say that at my age.

    I'd like to add an additional problem with property in the UK, as if we needed another, and that is the concept of leasehold. This allows a free holder to own the land under say a large block of flats, and collect rent and service charges  for it, while what the occupants buy for their  quarter million pound bedsit,  is actually only the right to live there for some fraction of 99 years, depending what the previous occupant, has used of the lease. That is not great but is not the main insidious problem as the lease can be renewed, but the sale of the freehold to someone with no real interest in maintaining the building, as the ground rent comes due if they do or not. This can leave leaseholders with a responsibility to pay, for something that in extreme cases,  may not even be habitable or saleable...

    The real problem is that there are a lot of folk making a living (== extracting money from something) without actually putting much effort in return, and worse, this behaviour is held up as some sort of ideal to aspire to.

    Mike

  • Hello Mike:

    After WW11  in 1948 my parent (who never really talked about all the details) purchased an old home in London for a small amount as it only had 10 years left on the 99 year lease.

    Then the government changed the law to allow people to buy out the lease for again a very small amount of money. It thus became a very desirable property.

    Peter Brooks

    Palm Bay 

    Florida 

  • Hello Mike:

    It is my understanding that the land on which the IET headquarters building stands (Savoy Place) is owned indirectly by King Charles and a small token payment is made every year.

    Peter Brooks

    Palm Bay Florida 

  • Hello Mike:

    There is currently a major problem in Florida (mainly in south Florida) with multi-story apartment buildings.

    After one condo collapsed a few years ago it was found to be due to a lack of building maintenance.

    The monthly fee paid by the apartment owners for general maintenance (grounds, swimming pool and common areas) was not enough to cover structural building maintenance (repair of roof and concrete columns being attacked by sea water). 

    The state passed a law that buildings over a certain age and height had to be inspected and problems identified and priced.

    The condo association then has to impose additional fees on the owners to fix these problems.

    I hear that some condos owners now have outstanding bills for thousands of dollars and the owners are scrambling to sell, before the axe falls.

    Peter Brooks

    Palm Bay Florida 

  • It seems crazy that laws have to be passed for common sense maintenance. In the uk the flammable cladding debacle is an example of enviromental do gooders imposing their judgement upon previously well designed buildings.

    Politics and profit first. Engineering second.

    Dumb.

  • Hello Jon:

    In the case of using flammable cladding on existing buildings, this was just a case of out and out fraud by the manufacturer and support from some Fire "Engineers".

    Peter Brooks

    Palm Bay Florida 

  • Surely someone somewhere new the potential disaster?

  • Hello Jon:

    Oh yes some of them knew what they were doing, but the rest (Councils) just wanted the cheapest possible option.

    Peter Brooks

    Palm Bay Florida   

  • It seems crazy that laws have to be passed for common sense maintenance.

    Perhaps, but I suggest your faith in folk being 'good' without an official standard is not supported as it seems we need other laws for common sense driving, and common sense food standards and so on as well  - it prevents the good guys being undercut and put out of business by the cheats and fraudsters.

    And in terms of looking after your buildings the whole Rachman empire was built on being a 'slum landlord' and being very careful to avoid local authority controls and he was not really found out until after his death  - its not a new problem

    Mike