The IET is carrying out some important updates between 17-30 April and all of our websites will be view only. For more information, read this Announcement

Rules and Guidelines
Want to participate in the discussions? Please read our Community Rules and Guidelines. Need some help? Visit Support and Answers.

  • State Not Answered
  • Locked Locked
  • Replies 140 replies
  • Subscribers 31 subscribers
  • Views 14666 views
  • Users 0 members are here
Options
You may also be interested in
This discussion is locked.
You cannot post a reply to this discussion. If you have a question start a new discussion

What is the best way to wire ceiling lights?

Arran Cameron
The ceiling rose junction box with its loop-in wiring is now really showing its age and is no longer a practical (or even safe) installation for most residents who wish to install fancy light fittings. It is still, however, the most common arrangement for new build houses and rewires, probably as the result of the electrician's training and how they consider it to be the norm or they cannot think of (potentially better) alternatives.


So, what is the best way to wire ceiling lights? Should neutral wires be taken to the switches or not?
  • 0

    Legh Richardson:



    Thank you for the link although there is nothing there which describes Surewire or Octopus junction box wiring configurations. The circuits shown are the basic lighting circuits that may help DIYers (including Mike....lol ) out of a dangerous event taking place.


    It's probably not intended to be a comprehensive encylopedia of how to wire ceiling lights.

     

  • 0

    ebee:

    Fix the hook thru the rose, no problem?




    Actually saw that yesterday, customer wanted the ceiling roses replaced...one literally had a 3" long hook screwed through a hole in its cover, through the rose,and into the joist.  The cables had obviously been dressed away from the area inside the rose... but yikes

  • 0

    MHRestorations:




    ebee:

    Fix the hook thru the rose, no problem?




    Actually saw that yesterday, customer wanted the ceiling roses replaced...one literally had a 3" long hook screwed through a hole in its cover, through the rose,and into the joist.  The cables had obviously been dressed away from the area inside the rose... but yikes


     




    I went to a job where the customers were getting electric shocks off the sink hot tap in the kitchen because someone had fixed a light fitting through the plastic ceiling rose of the dining room light, there was also dodgy earthing and there were not any RCDs.


    Putting screws through the cover of plastic ceiling light roses is potentially lethal. 


    Andy Betteridge 

     

  • 0

    MHRestorations:




    ebee:

    Fix the hook thru the rose, no problem?




    Actually saw that yesterday, customer wanted the ceiling roses replaced...one literally had a 3" long hook screwed through a hole in its cover, through the rose,and into the joist.  The cables had obviously been dressed away from the area inside the rose... but yikes


    Surely not one of these!


    We got ours from Christopher Wray when they had a branch in Southampton. What a pity that their company has declined!
  • 0

    This entering the realm of deep philosophy…



    It's far from unknown for professionals and practitioners to become 'crystallised' in their knowledge which makes it difficult for them to think outside of the box, think outside of their bubble, or learn about and understand how what they do is done in other countries and communities. They just end up thinking and doing what they have learned many years ago during their education and training, or think and do what everybody else appears to think and do, without ever questioning it.



    Some technology refuses to die but can technology also stagnate? Not because there is no opportunity for innovation and improvement, or innovation and improvement is economically unviable, but because most of the practitioners who deal with the technology have knowledge which is 'crystallised'. House designs have changed since the 1960s; electrical appliances have changed since the 1960s; consumer units have changed since the 1960s; even light bulbs have changed since the 1960s; but the method of wiring up ceiling lights by the majority of electricians has barely changed one bit.



    It's common knowledge that engineers often design products thinking only about their (technically minded) fraternity rather than the needs and requirements of the majority of the end users of the product. Could the same also apply to building electricians? The ceiling rose junction box with its loop-in wiring might be the most convenient method for electricians to install in a new build or rewire but it's definitely not for the end user, namely the resident of the house, who wants to replace the ceiling rose with fancy light fittings with the least difficulty and the most safety. They might also just so happen to require a neutral at the wall switch for some 'smart' controller.


  • 0


    "Putting screws through the cover of plastic ceiling light roses is potentially lethal. "


    I think we might be talking at cross purposes or I am Missing something.

    I am not talking chandeliers on pulleys etc I am talking about the light fitting that effectively hooks onto a hook or hole in a bracket and the connection is via three wires usually floating.into a strip connector. The CR base is like a set of fixed strip connectors, the hook is attached to the joist therefore weight bearing. The "cup" of the (earthed) light fitting now encloses the connection box (CR backplate) . Therefore once the light fitting is hooked on the hook in the joist is earthy via the light fitting and totally enclosed (topside via the joist and bottomside via the earthed cup). If the ceiling hook vis via a bracket then an earth link wire is attached too. Take a look at a fanlight, is that so very different in practice?


    I am not talking about putting a hook thru the cover of a CR and hanging a light fitting on it. That would make the hook an exposed conductive part. There is no cover on the CR backplate, the light fitting ceiling cover has replaced it and it is earthed. If instead it were a plastic cup it would be insulated. In any event the hook would be enclosed just in the same way that a ceiling rose fixing screw head is enclosed by backplate and cover and screwed into joist.
  • 0
    The method of looping at the ceiling rose is the most common way, for good reason, and has usually been my preferred way. It is economical on cable, enabling a single twin-and-earth cable to be run everywhere, and leaves all terminals accessible for inspection.


    To loop at switches would require three twin-and-earth cables running down to each switch - more cable and heavier wiring at each switch, though simplifying wiring at the ceiling rose. Of course, on conduit installations, where single insulated conductors are used, this is not an  issue because a single conductor can run from switch to light.


    Sometimes it is desirable to provide an indicator lamp at a switch, where it controls something other than a light in the same room. Examples include bathroom light controlled by a switch outside the door, switch controlling a loft light or outside light. In these cases a neutral is required at the switch so looping off the ceiling rose will not do.


    Then there are ceiling switches - my preference for a bathroom and can be useful elsewhere. Since there is no drop down a wall, there is no significant saving in cabling in wiring these looping from the ceiling rose against looping at the switch. Again, it may be desirable to incorporate an indicator light at the ceiling switch. The case for looping at the switch increases considerably.


    Should we put less emphasis on wall switches and more on ceiling switches, thereby saving on wiring and also solving the problem of the live conductor at the ceiling rose? Just a thought.
  • 0
    This might be cynical to say this but could it be possible that electricians like ceiling rose junction boxes with loop-in wiring for a good reason other than ease and costs of initial installation? They provide a lucrative source of income from residents who want to install fancy ceiling lights but are terrified at the sight of a complex interconnection of 3 cables when they unscrew the cover of a ceiling rose, then conclude it's beyond their capability to rewire it correctly so they call in an electrician instead.. Replacing a ceiling rose with a fancy light fitting may be a bit fiddly in practice but it's easy going routine work for an electrician with the knowledge of how the wires are connected. They can also charge a one-off cost at a higher price than their standard hourly labour rate. As Arthur Daley would say - "nice little earner".


    If the lighting circuit is arranged so that there is just one cable connected to the ceiling rose then it could be said with confidence that the resident would be much more likely to be able to install the light fitting themself rather than ending up calling in an electrician.


    Therefore alternatives to the ceiling rose junction box with loop-in wiring that results in just one cable connected to the ceiling rose or light fitting are potentially another instance of technology that puts people out of a job.
  • 0
    Are dedicated lighting circuits even necessary? Considering that standard and table lamps are powered from sockets on the ring main rather than from the lighting circuit, then is there anything wrong (or even strange) about connecting ceiling lights to the ring main via a FCU in each room? This is probably the most economical on cable of all methods as it only requires a cable from the FCU (located next to a socket) to the light switch then to the ceiling light.
  • 0
    You might run that way as a "one off" situation for power in an oubuilding/small room/large "cupboard" but normally you`d consider seperate ccts fow power an lighting anyway so at least you could plug in table amps if your lighting circuit not working. Also for any more than simple one way switching it gets a bit unweildy

Join us to get the best from IET EngX.

Joining EngX lets you personalise your experience so you stay up to date on the topics that interest you, plus you’ll be able to make connections who are looking to collaborate, exchange ideas and more.

Join us Not now

Community Rules & Guidelines