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What is the best way to wire ceiling lights?

Arran Cameron
The ceiling rose junction box with its loop-in wiring is now really showing its age and is no longer a practical (or even safe) installation for most residents who wish to install fancy light fittings. It is still, however, the most common arrangement for new build houses and rewires, probably as the result of the electrician's training and how they consider it to be the norm or they cannot think of (potentially better) alternatives.


So, what is the best way to wire ceiling lights? Should neutral wires be taken to the switches or not?
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    Oh dear, I seem to have landed on a controversial point here, though it was not entirely unexpected. Thank you, Legh, for the links, which I have browsed with interest.


    I am not, of course, in any way anti "approved testers"; indeed I would expect every practising electrician to have one. I would however make these points
    • The argument that it is dangerous to use a screwdriver tester if it has become wet applies to ANY tester; indeed ANY device that uses mains electricity.

    • Not every situation will provide a convenient earthing point.

    • Even where an earthing point is available, it is sometimes more convenient to use a one-handed tester. Not every earthed conductor will take a clip easily. Besides, up a stepladder, it may be desirable to use one's other hand either to handle some dangling component under test or to steady oneself by holding on to the ladder or some other reliable support.

    • I should be interested to know if there have been any recorded cases of the 1 megohm resistor inside the screwdriver spontaneously going short-circuit.



    I treat the screwdriver tester as an alternative to the "approved", not a substitute. When I work with electricity I turn off the subcircuit by withdrawing the fuse and make sure that I am standing on an insulating surface. As an added precaution, I leave a light or other device on the subcircuit switched to the ON position for monitoring. I only access a live circuit for testing. If I am conscious that I am working in a damp environment I take extra precautions, and this is a situation where I would think twice about using a screwdriver tester.


    I am well aware that screwdriver testers are useless in places like high voltage grid sites or RF transmitter stations, where induced e.m.f.s abound.


    By all means, let us hear more views on this.
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    Tomgunn:



    Well, I've fitted about a million of them so add all the other's that have been fitted and I doubt you'll ever find one that's caused any problems... just saying!



    This is where it gets philosophical again...


    Electrical engineers and building electricians really do inhabit different planets. Electrical engineers are educated - to question things; to ask the hows and whys; to think outside the box; to solve problems. Building electricians are trained - to comply with rules and regulations; to follow established or conventional practices; not to think too deeply or question things; not to innovate. The majority of electrical engineers do not have the level of knowledge about electrical installations in buildings as electricians do as it is rarely taught as part of electrical engineering courses. Neither are they qualified to carry out work on electrical installations in buildings. In fact it wouldn't surprise me if a significant proportion of electrical engineers do not know how to (correctly!!) wire a ceiling rose junction box or replace one with a fancy light fitting - without first doing research. Something every building electrician knows off the top of their head. However, most of the developments and innovations in electrical installations in buildings over the decades have been accomplished by electrical engineers and not building electricians. Seriously, how many building electricians do you know who have developed new products; come up with new theory; or devised new rules and regulations?


    It's possible that most building electricians are, to a certain degree, prone to luddism as they prefer to stick to established methods and technology, or what they learned during training, unless forced to change as a result of changes in legislation. In contrast, good engineers are aware that just because something has been done in a particular way for a long time doesn't necessarily imply it is the best way that it can be done.


    In my locality it's a bit tricky to find an electrician who is good when it comes to owner occupied houses where the owners want to add advanced features like smart lighting or home automation. The majority of electricians seem to have a mindset for rentals, new builds, or property developers who refurbish and sell houses, where minimalism and cost cutting is the name of the game.



     

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    "The majority of electricians seem to have a mindset for rentals, new builds, or property developers who refurbish and sell houses, where minimalism and cost cutting is the name of the game " that might be because most of their customers are that type and it is like a breathe of fresh air to find a rare client who wants different. In the real world it can be a race to the bottom on price, done as quick as possible . Or they get someone else. That way the mindset of many gets fixed to what it is generally not what we would like it to be.
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    Arran Cameron:




    Tomgunn:



    Well, I've fitted about a million of them so add all the other's that have been fitted and I doubt you'll ever find one that's caused any problems... just saying!



    This is where it gets philosophical again...


    Electrical engineers and building electricians really do inhabit different planets. Electrical engineers are educated - to question things; to ask the hows and whys; to think outside the box; to solve problems. Building electricians are trained - to comply with rules and regulations; to follow established or conventional practices; not to think too deeply or question things; not to innovate. The majority of electrical engineers do not have the level of knowledge about electrical installations in buildings as electricians do as it is rarely taught as part of electrical engineering courses. Neither are they qualified to carry out work on electrical installations in buildings. In fact it wouldn't surprise me if a significant proportion of electrical engineers do not know how to (correctly!!) wire a ceiling rose junction box or replace one with a fancy light fitting - without first doing research. Something every building electrician knows off the top of their head. However, most of the developments and innovations in electrical installations in buildings over the decades have been accomplished by electrical engineers and not building electricians. Seriously, how many building electricians do you know who have developed new products; come up with new theory; or devised new rules and regulations?


    It's possible that most building electricians are, to a certain degree, prone to luddism as they prefer to stick to established methods and technology, or what they learned during training, unless forced to change as a result of changes in legislation. In contrast, good engineers are aware that just because something has been done in a particular way for a long time doesn't necessarily imply it is the best way that it can be done.


    In my locality it's a bit tricky to find an electrician who is good when it comes to owner occupied houses where the owners want to add advanced features like smart lighting or home automation. The majority of electricians seem to have a mindset for rentals, new builds, or property developers who refurbish and sell houses, where minimalism and cost cutting is the name of the game.



     


     




    Which one are you then?

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    A positive advantage of a bit of ludditeism, especically in situations where there are plans - such as domestics, is that if everyone follows "tried and trusted" methods when it comes to things like ceiling roses, ring circuits etc, then the next person along will have a least a chance of understanding what the previous cowboy electrical professional did and why.
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    ebee:

    that might be because most of their customers are that type and it is like a breathe of fresh air to find a rare client who wants different. In the real world it can be a race to the bottom on price, done as quick as possible . Or they get someone else. That way the mindset of many gets fixed to what it is generally not what we would like it to be.




    There may be much truth to this but this raises the question do intrepid and forward thinking homeowners who want to add advanced features take away work from qualified electricians leaving them with only the boring 'bread and butter' stuff, or are most qualified electricians so stuck in their ways that they are unable or unwilling to add these advanced features or offer anything truly different from the standard fare that homeowners end up having to do the job themself?


    I'm intrigued to know what the electrics are like of the homes owned by building electricians. Do they even have fancy light fittings or do they have boring white plastic ceiling roses in every room?



     

  • 0

    Arran Cameron:



    I'm intrigued to know what the electrics are like of the homes owned by building electricians. Do they even have fancy light fittings or do they have boring white plastic ceiling roses in every room?




    OK, I am not a building electrician, but I certainly don't have "boring white plastic ceiling roses in every room" - but that is nothing to do with me, it was my wife's decision. I just had to fit what she bought.......

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    Lol ..... I've got some right old boring white light fittings still operating probably because I have been too occupied with other things. I have, however, got a lot of remote controlled plug in lighting and assocated electronics.....


    Legh

  • 0
    Fanciest things we have are two-way + intermediate. ?
  • 0

    Arran Cameron:




    ebee:

    that might be because most of their customers are that type and it is like a breathe of fresh air to find a rare client who wants different. In the real world it can be a race to the bottom on price, done as quick as possible . Or they get someone else. That way the mindset of many gets fixed to what it is generally not what we would like it to be.




    There may be much truth to this but this raises the question do intrepid and forward thinking homeowners who want to add advanced features take away work from qualified electricians leaving them with only the boring 'bread and butter' stuff, or are most qualified electricians so stuck in their ways that they are unable or unwilling to add these advanced features or offer anything truly different from the standard fare that homeowners end up having to do the job themself?


    I'm intrigued to know what the electrics are like of the homes owned by building electricians. Do they even have fancy light fittings or do they have boring white plastic ceiling roses in every room?



     


     




    Probably as we all know what a pain in the *** they are to fit, no matter which style of wiring has been done at the ceiling rose. 

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