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Social Housing EICR Contract

Former Community Member
Former Community Member
OK. Id be very grateful for some experienced testers opinions regarding how they would proceed if they were in my shoes.


I accepted a contract carrying out EICR's for a social housing contract.


Now, I havent been doing EICR's since 2015. Back then I would charge a day rate and test every circuit 100%.


Probably the biggest part of how I used to do things was disconnecting every last piece of current using equipment and doing I.R between neutral and line, line and earth and neutral and earth. It used to take a lot of effort to find every piece of equipment and often things were found which the customer, despite living in the property all their lives didnt know existed.


Here I have 1.5 hours per property, we arent allowed to leave FI, C1 or C2 problems (withing reson of course but generally theres a lot to sort out)


1st question - If your R1 + R2 value is lower than either your RN or your R1 continuity tests - What would that tell you and what would you do to prove the circuit is ok for continued use in its current state?


2nd question - If you had either excessively high, or no continuity on R1, RN or R2 end to end readings, how can you quickly and simply prove the circuit is stilll safe for use without getting deep in to further investigation?


3th question - When doing an I.R test whereby........ line+neutral are connected together and tested to earth - Is there any electronic or electrical device which, if connected, could result in a test failing the circuit? I had one today 0.79 ohms


  • Former Community Member
    0 Former Community Member
    OK. Id be very grateful for some experienced testers opinions regarding how they would proceed if they were in my shoes.


    I'd make sure I'd got my running shoes on...............


    I know that flippant remark doesn't answer your question, but seriously, 1.5 hours? 


    I'd run miles away from that risk and reward scenario..........Well, as fast and far as being tubby would let me..........


    Regards


    BOD
  • Former Community Member
    0 Former Community Member
    1.5 hours to test and inspect an entire house is a joke surely...

    we used to do 30 mins per circuit when I was doing domestics PIRs
  • Former Community Member
    0 Former Community Member

    perspicacious:
    OK. Id be very grateful for some experienced testers opinions regarding how they would proceed if they were in my shoes.


    I'd make sure I'd got my running shoes on...............


    I know that flippant remark doesn't answer your question, but seriously, 1.5 hours? 


    I'd run miles away from that risk and reward scenario..........Well, as fast and far as being tubby would let me..........


    Regards


    BOD




    I seen a nice pair of nike air max on sale last week ill see about picking them up!

  • Former Community Member
    0 Former Community Member

    dustydazzler:

    1.5 hours to test and inspect an entire house is a joke surely...

    we used to do 30 mins per circuit when I was doing domestics PIRs 




    No Joke!

  • 0

    Daniel Hughes:

    I accepted a contract carrying out EICR's for a social housing contract.



    So you are where you are. Let's get on with it!

    Now, I havent been doing EICR's since 2015. Back then I would charge a day rate and test every circuit 100%.

    Every circuit needs to be tested, but you can sample. A good inspection history and a clean environment (unlikely in social housing?) lowers the sampling rate. See GN3 3.8.4 (17th Edn).

    Here I have 1.5 hours per property, we arent allowed to leave FI, C1 or C2 problems (withing reson of course but generally theres a lot to sort out)

    Next time I get an MOT, I shall tell my man, John, that he cannot fail or make advisories. Legally, I would say that you can void the contract for unreasonableness if you cannot grade FI, C1, or C2, or have to fix any issues for no extra fee.

    1st question - If your R1 + R2 value is lower than either your RN or your R1 continuity tests - What would that tell you and what would you do to prove the circuit is ok for continued use in its current state?

    R1 + R2 = (r1 + r2)/4 so that wouldn't worry me. (OSG 10.3)

    2nd question - If you had either excessively high, or no continuity on R1, RN or R2 end to end readings, how can you quickly and simply prove the circuit is stilll safe for use without getting deep in to further investigation?

    I don't think that you can. (I spent a large part of a morning recently testing a large ring, which was previously satisfactory. It turned out that a spreader (or the householder) had removed a socket and simply taped the ends loosely together. It was all hidden behind some boards. Seriously!)

    3th question - When doing an I.R test whereby........ line+neutral are connected together and tested to earth - Is there any electronic or electrical device which, if connected, could result in a test failing the circuit? I had one today 0.79 ohms

    I imagine that this is a typo for 0.79 MΩ. I wouldn't rule it out. Surely that's an FI!
  • 0
    I did a Housing Association EICR in one and a half hours and was accused of not doing a proper job.


    The email I dispatched to the HA manager pointed out that I had spent an entire day in the two bed flat less than six months prior doing a full inspection, testing, repairs and preparing an EICR, at the previous change of tenancy, so I was merely ensuring it was in the same condition as then.


    Generally you need at least half a day on site without doing any repairs, I do not not think you can do what is being asked of you.


    Andy Betteridge.

  • 0
    I agree with Andy and have also done a quick EICR in a house where I have previously installed a new CU and  a full EICR taking about 1/2 a day and already have the previous report om the computer. . What you are being asked to do is impossible to do properly but is a symptom of the way the industry is going. A quick look around a global IR test and few R2s and a Zs if you are lucky. It normally takes me more than an hour to put my results and conclusions into the computer.
  • 0

    Chris Pearson:




    Daniel Hughes:

    I accepted a contract carrying out EICR's for a social housing contract. . . I have 1.5 hours per property, we arent allowed to leave FI, C1 or C2 problems (withing reson of course but generally theres a lot to sort out)



    Next time I get an MOT, I shall tell my man, John, that he cannot fail or make advisories. Legally, I would say that you can void the contract for unreasonableness if you cannot grade FI, C1, or C2, or have to fix any issues for no extra fee. 


    Whether you can void the Contract or not depends on the skill of the Contract writer. You could be liable for a fine for “breach of Contract” if it is well written. I know it doesn’t help here, but if the job can not be done within the allotted time / money, do not agree to it in the first place. With a well written Contract, it is almost impossible to change once you have signed. You are signing to say you agree to do the work for the time / cost / conditions set out. 


    Regards,


    Alan. 

  • 0
    If we looking at the best you can do in 1.5 hours then....


    I'd forget the R1+R2 tests on radials - they're primarily there to ensure the circuit is safe to energise - but your circuits are already energised - so just do Zs tests - at the very least at each end point (of which there could be more than one per circuit if things branch). There's also a safety advantage in not dismantling things in order to test them (and so re-assembling them after the test, which the consequence that what's put into service isn't quite what was tested). Comparing readings with Zdb should give you an idea if anything is out of the ordinary (although the difference shouldn't really be taken to be a R1+R2 value). Don't forget doing a 'long lead' R1 test if that would be a more convenient way of checking c.p.c. continuity and give an indication of likely Zs. Say if you do a Zs loop test at a ceiling rose (to SL rarther than the loop terminal) and a long lead R1 test to the corresponding switch fixing screws (either from the MET or from the PE terminal in the ceiling rose) and Zs plus you R1 results is still lower than the max permitted Zs, they you can be pretty confident that Zs inside the switch is going to be absolutely fine. There's no need to enter a R1+R2 value on the form if you've already proved c.p.c. continuity and overall Zs by other means.


    Continuity on rings I probably wouldn't skip - but if the CU is a mess then do it at a convenient double socket instead as that's likely to be a lot quicker and easier. Parallel paths to the c.p.c. often give Zs or R1+R2 values lower than expected from r1, r2 and rn values - you can't really deduce anything from that fact alone. Different cable types (e.g. one section in 4mm2 rather than 2.5mm2) can also upset any assumptions of R1 (or Rn) to R2 ratios - so again don't get too precious about that kind of thing. Fundamantally as long as Zs is within limits, then ADS should work OK and the circuit should be safe from a shock point of view (at least for earth faults).


    Insulation tests can be done once per CU rather than on each individual final circuit (despite the model forms, BS 7671 doesn't actually require per-circuit insulation tests). L+N to PE will reveal the vast majoriy of faults, especially when wired in T&E, so that'll usually suffice. Yes, some electronic equipment has components L/N to PE (usually capacitors for EMI filtering purposes) which can mess up insulation test results (including some RCBOs with a white wire of course). Try the test at 250V first (as that shouldn't damage anything) and only if it's low start hunting for any hidden items. Once it's clear, try the test proper at 500V. In terms of form filling, if you know that the entire installation has an insulation resistance of a certain value, then you can be sure that each circuit will have a insulation resistance of at least that - mathematically it's impossible for it to be lower - so you can correctly write "≥ (your whole CU value)" for each circuit.


    Don't skip on the Mk1 eyeball (or nose) tests - they'll probably lead you to problems quicker than meter based tests.


    Try to cover yourself in the 'limitations' section of the report - explicity agreed with the person ordering the work of course - and make it part of your template form so you don't have to add it to each report manually.


       - Andy.
  • 0
    Ignoring the fact that others have pointed out,  that in that time at best it will probably be mostly a 'visual only ' inspection, and anything with complexity more than a garden shed with one light and a double socket circuit is going to take longer...


    (There is a tendency to do very weak testing, and repeat it too  often, instead of a full drains-up but less frequently which would represent better value. Price and a desire for some paper with a recent date is the driver)


    The tech bit

    1st question - If your R1 + R2 value is lower than either your RN or your R1 continuity tests - What would that tell you and what would you do to prove the circuit is ok for continued use in its current state?




    R2 cound be very low, and no fault, the classic is a return via  plumbing from a water heater, but there are other similar cases.

    On a ring main, the two halves of the ring main (at the far point on the ring) appear in parallel.

    If you want a test to make some sense of this, measure as 2 spurs separately (by breaking the ring and testing call it  the Left hand pair only, and measuring L-E  to the dis board, then changing the short to the right hand L-E pair) you must combine the results (using the parallel R formula.) This also allows you to see how far round the ring you really are, and that you are not in the middle of a spur which may not be obvious on inspection on an unknown circuit.






    2nd question - If you had either excessively high, or no continuity on R1, RN or R2 end to end readings, how can you quickly and simply prove the circuit is still safe for use without getting deep in to further investigation?




    If it is a Radial, you cannot, it i broken. If it is a ring,  it may be 'crab claws' and still have power and earth to every point. It is not nice, but it is possible to drop the breaker to 20A and make it a centre fed radial. But if there is ring-round on 2 out of 3,  say L and N but not E or similar, then it is a dead cert that something nasty has happened.






    3th question - When doing an I.R test whereby........ line+neutral are connected together and tested to earth - Is there any electronic or electrical device which, if connected, could result in a test failing the circuit? I had one today 0.79 ohms




    If it really is 079 ohms, that is comparable to the R1 R2 etc and represents a dead short, The only electronics that will do that is faulty.

    If it is really much higher but that is what your meter says, then I'd be looking for leakage to TV antennas and other cables that leave the building. If it is  whole building L+N to E and the building has a lot of kit in, 0.79 meg may be OK.

    If you to L+N to CPC lifted,  and compare with L+N to CPC + MET + Bonding   you will be able to see if the leakage is to the CPC, or to an external thing, or both.

    Also repeat at 120 or 250V test voltage, if the value is much higher at lower voltage is electronics or a neon.


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