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Who is the electrical installation designer?

AncientMariner
With my County Councillor hat on (many of you are aware that besides being a retired Merchant Navy Officer and a former Civil Servant (RAF avionics) I am currently a County Councillor, in Wales - with their own Part P!) I have been asked for advice regarding a new electrical installation in a barn conversion.


It is not a re-wire, since there was no electrical installation there at all previously, but instead this is the complete electrical installation for a four bedroom holiday accommodation to a high standard.


Now the problem:  The switching for lighting is idiotic. By this I mean that 1) The outside lighting adjacent to doors and for patios and hot-tub area, is controlled by various switches in bedrooms often with the illuminated outside area not adjacent to the outside door or switch. Generally 2-gang switches with the other gang for the room itself. 2) Bedside lights have been configured so that at either side of each bed there is a 2-way switch to the other side of the bed which switches on the down lights from the ceiling for both sides of the bed. Again these switches are 2-gang and the other gang switches the main ceiling lights, which negates the purpose of having supposedly separate over-bed lighting. The owners wish was that each side of the bed controlled the ceiling down light for that side of the bed without any need or requirement to have this 2-way with the other side. 3) there are areas with steps where due to the local lighting location, you end up walking into darkness.


Being holiday accommodation, you are not there long enough to learn the idiosyncrasies of the switching arrangement, and the fear is that a holiday resident may be injured


It is fixable, but only by cutting through the new plaster and decoration in various locations in each room. But that is somewhat extreme and destructive for a brand new installation. Another electrician has estimated around £2,000 to fix, but that would entail some exposed wiring outside. 


Originally a quote was given for the work and in time the 1st fix was paid for at that stage.    Now the bill for 2nd fix has arrived and it is greater (just under £2,000 greater) than quoted. The customer has paid the NICEIC registered electrician the quotation price plus money for agreed extras (a couple of hundred). In response the electrician is threatening small claims court unless his inflated Invoice for some £1,000 more is paid by year end.


His excuse is that he was not given the architects plans showing what was required, in reality what was wanted was by discussion and with locations etc marked on the walls before wiring and plastering.


So as per my post title, who is the electrical installation designer?  Who is responsible for drawing up a diagram of what is wanted/required?  The property owner is not electrically qualified.


And of course, what should the person who contacted me (property owner) do?


Many thanks.


Clive




  • 0
    One question is was it an estimate or a fixed price?


    An estimate would usually be expected to be a plus or minus 10% range say.

    A fixed price would be expected to be a fixed price but , within certain very strict criteria, might be altered.

    a "Quote or qoutation" has no legal meaning, it is just an estimate


    there isa party or parties who is/are the designers but it seems it needs untangling to decide who is

    1/ electrical designer with regards to electrical safety

    2/ project designer with regards to finished function
  • 0
    I love clients who declare they are “Project managers”.
  • 0
    As far as the customer is concerned, especially with the small claims process possibly on the horizon, there are two immediate actions.


    Firstly to create a written schedule of all the problems with the current installation, and why he considers it inadequate - this is why he is withholding payment after all.  (Perhaps indicating what he was expecting as well, though ideally that should have existed at the outset) and to give this to the electrician.


    After all, if it cannot be avoided that it goes to court, this sort  of documentation will be needed anyway - otherwise it just looks like  an unpaid bill for work done.


    Secondly,if not already provided, he should request from the electrician a detailed breakdown of the extra £1K on the bill, and to ask why it was not mentioned as soon as it became obvious that the costs were going to rise significantly over the estimate.

    Unless this is a big barn, that is quite a lot of extra kit, or a good few full days of additional labour that need to be accounted for - there may be a good reason for it, or there may not.


    It is important to keep all communications civil, and ideally backed up in writing, even if he ends up with some correspondence that reads like....

    "further to our 'phone call of this morning, here is a brief note to capture our conclusions in writing, please let me know if you disagree " However, if that happens he needs to avoid saying anything that is not pertinent and factual. A rambling diatribe of insults is not helpful, on either side.  A third party dispassionate  pair of eyes as a good proof -reader is recommended.


    The electrician may well be cheesed off for not being paid for doing what he thinks the client asked for.

    Regards Mike
  • 0
    No doubt as the installation is in service the electrian has issued an EIC? 


    This is cannot be withheld regardless of any payment made. If this has not been done the owner should request it. If this is no done then the NICEIC will accept that as a complaint. They will instruct the contractor to supply it.


    That will/should have the name of the designer and a signature to say it has been designed to meet the requirements of BS 7671. Then the names of the constructor and inspector who will have certified compliance with BS 7671. Alternatively there may be a single signature for all 3 tasks.
  • 0
    The last job I did that was supervised by an Architect was about three years ago, the lighting design did not meet the clients requirements.


    I questioned the specification for the grey down lights in the kitchen extension at seventy odd quid each, as the rest of the kitchen has readily available chrome fittings costing a tenner each.


    I was told by the builder to just do what the architect said, which I did then afterwards we altered it all to suit the clients requirements at extra cost, including replacing the kitchen extension down lights.


    Overall I could have saved the client over one and a half thousand pounds by having a meeting with them and the architect before carrying out the work as specified, with issues such as having to install LED flood lights because the fancy GU10 “Up Down” lighting only illuminated the walls with a wash of light, not the steps and path up to the door, so you could see the garden room but could not get to it safely.


     But I know my place in the pecking order and when I am told to follow the architects instructions I do.


    Some customers do allow me to fo my own thing, but I have never been accused of providing something that didn’t meet their expectations, only questioned as to if some refinements were actually required.


    From experience the issues stated in the first post about the outdoor lighting I suspect they may well be problems created by the customers and designers rather than by the electrician.


  • 0
    Architects!


    Daughter has recently received planning permission for an annex with link room to existing house, and garage.


    The architect has cut off some ground floor roof where the new will join the old. That's fine, but what will he (or she) do with all the cables which serve that part of the house and which would then be exposed to the elements? I am not supposed to interfere! ?
  • 0
    Of course "electrical designer" can apply to two different roles: someone who decides where would be useful places for light fittings and switches and will look pretty; and someone who works out how to implement that, with the right types of cable, switches and protection etc such that it's safe and functions to spec. What is the "designer" on the EIC signing off to?
  • 0
    The designer signs the EIC to say that the design complies with BS 7671.
  • 0
    Compliance with BS7671 is not an indication that an electrical installation is fit for purpose or meets the client expectations.
  • Former Community Member
    0 Former Community Member
    The architect has cut off some ground floor roof where the new will join the old.


    As I posted earlier, "artist's impression"!


    I know an architect who offers two levels of pricing:

    Basic to pass planning and BRegs

    Deluxe if you actually want to be able to actually build it..................


    Regards


    BOD

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