Bathroom appliance help please

mapj1 said:

However, even then it might be unwise, for reasons of  damp and perhaps machines rusting away.

At one time, I would have supported this perspective, and certainly up to the early 1980s, many machines on the UK market didn't do well in a bathroom environment.

However, in today's global market, things are a little different.

Many countries in Europe think having dirty laundry in the kitchen is quite disgusting, and bathrooms are a common place to find washing machines and tumble dryers. Machines are therefore now made with that use case in mind, it being relatively common in the European market at a whole. 

Also, I hope many bathrooms today are better-ventilated than those in the 1970s, or can be made so quite easily (if one has the correct certification to do that work, of course).

Sergio Fernandez said:

There is also the very IMPORTANT point of a 230v nominal electrical item in a humid/damp environment

Even condensing tumble driers seem to expel some water vapour.

In any event bathrooms must have a minimum level of ventilation under Part F of the Building Regulations.

Chris Pearson said:

In any event bathrooms must have a minimum level of ventilation under Part F of the Building Regulations.

I agree on a new build but there is a substantial stock of 1920/30's 3 bed semi in the UK that have had sustantial material change to the building that do not comply with Part F of the Building Regulations.

The other point worthy of note is under normally working conditions and under fault or appliance fault conditions.  Potential in scope could be External Influences fault conditions

Sergio Fernandez said:

UK washing machines and UK tumble dryers are not designed for use in UK bathrooms which contain a bath and/or shower.  They will rust very quickly and internal parts will fail quicker.  There is also the very IMPORTANT point of a 230v nominal electrical item in a humid/damp environment which is unsafe even if a correctly selected and correctly functional RCBO (Type A minimum) is present.

I'm not sure AMDEA (Association of Manufacturers of Domestic Electrical Appliances) agree 100 %. See Section 7 of their guidance here: https://www.amdea.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2020/06/Appliances-in-bathrooms_July09.pdf

That doesn't mean all manufacturers agree ... check the instructions.

I agree that a tumble dryer will be less efficient if the bathroom (or kitchen) is humid.

Please also consider that, when we are boiling water etc. in kitchens, kitchens also get very humid, and water often condenses behind (and in) large laundry and dishwashing appliances in kitchens (not though with fridge/freezer, because they are expelling heat much of the time).

Sergio Fernandez said:

I agree on a new build but there is a substantial stock of 1920/30's 3 bed semi in the UK that have had sustantial material change to the building that do not comply with Part F of the Building Regulations.

Kitchen same though ... certainly in my 1930s house ... without the extractor, cooker hood, and trickle vents, both of those rooms would be sodden in winter.

gkenyon said:

if a correctly selected and correctly functional RCBO (Type A minimum) is present.

Would  AMDEA (Association of Manufacturers of Domestic Electrical Appliances) understand the RCBO type and why some countries like Germany deprecated type AC use over 30 years ago?

Sergio Fernandez said:

 Countries like Germany, Type AC RCDs and RCBOs (which only detect pure sinusoidal AC fault currents) were officially deprecated for general human protection against electrical shocks in 1987.

I don't think the situation is that ALL type AC RCDs (or RCDs that pre-date BS EN 61008 series and BS EN 61009 series) are necessarily 'blinded' at all times by a switching converter. Certainly, according to the diagrams in Figure A53.1, it's only where the electrical fault occurs on the load side of the converter for many appliances. Granted, that could be a leaking washing machine or boiler, but the RCD will work for other faults until that point, for example.

We can also get tied up in knots if we aren't careful. For example, there were no EMC tests in BS 4293 (or BS 7288 prior to a certain point). Similarly, even where EMC tests were done, EMC tests develop over time as the electromagnetic spectrum has been used and abused differently with the development of technology. ...  so how do you know your particular RCD/RCBO/SRCD will actually operate correctly when exposed to the EM environment in a home with modern appliances, WiFi, etc.? 

Lisa Miles said:

Personally I'd love to have my washing machine and tumble drier in the bathroom (if it was big enough) but at the moment the washing machine is in the kitchen and my tumble dryer lives in my shed

Similar in our house, washing machine and dishwasher in kitchen, tumble dryer in detached garage.

I disagree.  A 15 min piping hot shower makes more steam than a kitchen even if you boil water for food with the lids not present.  To prove this you would need a Hygrometer which are quite cheap and then you can see the RH (Relative Humidity) value for the kitchen and bathroom.  Then take a reading every 15 mins for the next 2 to 4 hours.  

The current recommend value for RH in a UK dwelling is 40 to 60%, above 60% then dew point will come into play and that would be the start of damp and/or condensation in the dwelling.

A 15 min piping hot shower makes more steam than a kitchen even if you boil water for food with the lids not present. 

Not steam from a shower (it's well below 100°C) - water vapour perhaps. I'm not sure about the cooking comparison either - my grandmother would boil ham (no lid) for several hours (and the veg wasn't for much shorter). As for the RH readings - wouldn't they just plateau at 100% regardless of how much extra water was forced into the air? (the excess being dumped just as rapidly as condensation).

  - Andy.

I agree the term should be water vapour and yes at 100% it will plateau but the fact remains, a UK bathroom will have a higher RH than a UK kitchen for a longer period of time if long hot showers are taken

I agree the term should be water vapour and yes at 100% it will plateau but the fact remains, a UK bathroom will have a higher RH than a UK kitchen for a longer period of time if long hot showers are taken