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U.K. ENGINEERING 2016 REPORT

Former Community Member
Former Community Member
​I have noted in another discussion, several comments of my own, but there seems to be a lack of interest or it takes too long to read and digest the report.

​Apart from Roy's original comments and direction to be able to read the report, it would be great to find out if IMechE, ICE and the IET have had any official comments on the report and if not, when can we expect any.?


​Daniel


P.S. Just had to get away from CEng v IEng status discussion.
  • 0
    Andy,

    Your comment about not needing experience of sales or management or even MEng to get chartered is bang on the money. I have recently suggested to someone (in a PRA role) that they should consider applying for CEng even without an MEng, or even a BEng - in fact the highest qualification is an 'O' level, but in my opinion the individual meets the CEng requirements! As far as sales and management are concerned, sales and marketing are not mentioned in the UKSpec competencies for CEng and the only reference to 'management' is in C2 and C3 which are "Plan, budget, organise, direct and control tasks, poeple and resources" (which is demonstrated by project management as opposed to people management) and "Lead teams and develop staff to meet changing technical and managerial needs" which can be demonstrated by leading a small team while reporting to a line manager.


    However I think this thread is deviating from talking about the Report and drifting to gripes about registration. I read the report about a month ago and my worry is that even if people agree with the contents (which from what I have seen of comments so far is not a given and I wouldn't support all of the proposals myself) then there is still a major problem in getting the will and the commitment to push forward with any changes. It would be difficult enough to get changes implemented by just IET but with the number of PEIs involved it is likely to be close to impossible. That said, all we can do is wait and see what progress is made.

    Alasdair Anderson
  • 0

    Brian Robertson:



    Professional Engineer



    Professional Engineers hold an Engineers Australia accredited or recognised four-year professional engineering degree.



    Engineering Technologist



    The academic qualification is an Engineers Australian accredited or recognised three year engineering technology degree.




    Brian - If I understand your extract correctly, unless one has a degree you cannot achieve Professional Engineer or Engineering Technologist status/registration in Australia, correct? There is no alternative or experience-based path?

  • 0
    Yes, qualified, but its the mandatory academic element that I query (and disagree with).


    There are countless brilliant engineers throughout time and around the world today having achieved great things for mankind, and are without an academic qualification. They are most-certainly qualified - through their experience and their application of their knowledge, skills and abilities, and thus their results. Indeed, as the UK Engineering 2016 Report comments "The system is still hampered by much historical baggage, not least of which is the dichotomy between university courses and employment based or apprenticeship training, a dichotomy still attended by ill-informed prejudice and snobbery, despite many of the most influential members of the profession having qualified by the latter route. It needs to be recognised that engineering requires a combination of theoretical knowledge and its practical application, coupled with many other skills" (#17, page 8).

  • 0
    The UK Engineering Report implies that the required theoretical knowledge and practical application gained in employment-based or apprenticeship training (i.e. non-degree) should be regarded as just as valid as that received through a University course. I fully agree with this.
  • Former Community Member
    0 Former Community Member
    I always liked the formula
    Professional = Education + Training + Experience.   It allows for having balance between the variables in the formula.

    I also ran in to very strong opposition especially in USA to licensing professionals who are not degreed, not only degree is required but a graduation from from professionally accredited program by ABET.

    Then two exams FE recommended during final year or soon after earning BSc Eng degree followed at some point by PE exam.


    The opponents of non degree rout state that professional engineers have to have science education such as high math for engineers, and other important subjects that it is unacceptable 

    for the Professional Engineer to not have proper education, state of Jew Jersey now requires Masters degree  level for registration.

    Most countries require Engineers to be university/Institute graduates.

    Its interesting that for work visa in USA the government will accept 3 years of appropriate experience as equal to 1 year at the university.

    ACE long time ego declared that it doesn't mater where one learn, be it library, work place or formal classroom if one can prove it then they can have the credit for it.

    France is addressing this issue by the VAE law, many universities in France can form Jury and award partial or full degree based on portfolio assessment APL.

    Previous education, training and experience are evaluated.

  • Former Community Member
    0 Former Community Member in reply to Legh Richardson

    I read many comments that
    are ill founded, there are too many to rectify here.

     

    In my opinion we need to
    keep and respect Technicians.

     

    We need to register BSc
    (or equivalent ) professional engineers with 4 years experience (
    less if apprenticed). No need for titles;  BSc MIET is good
    enough.

     

    We need a UK state
    register of FEANI equivalent BSc Professional engineers before they
    gain work experience. - Not CEN, just BSc.

     

    Last minute
    fact;

    Due to BREXIT, the UK
    Government is funding and backing new taught apprenticeship schemes
    taught in further education establishments – colleges,
    universities, with in house practical training and local industrial
    out-placing.

    This was the UK situation
    in the post war period until the late 80s.

     

    College and University
    offer three types of apprenticeship, inter linked in order that
    students can progress to the level they are fit and competent to
    exercise.


    ·        
    Skilled
    Technician


    ·        
    PE BSc (Hons)


    ·        
    Engineer MEng

     I had the chance to
    be trained this way.

     

    We no longer need CEng,
    it belongs to the past and is not respected as most CEng are not
    meeting UK Spec and are not working at engineering.

     

    CEng is a British
    peculiarity that needs reform, it is a status renewed each year by
    PEIs with the ECUK not a title, not a qualification.

     

    Past & retired PEs
    should have a PEI title only.

     

    IEng is not a
    Technician.

    No IEng would ever accept
    to be classed as a Technician, it is denigrating for each
    profession. I was a Full Technician. I chose to become a
    Professional Engineer, I never felt that my ECUK title was
    respectful of the time and effort that I spent to gain the
    competences and experience. 

    Any one who has the means
    can go through Fac, but try working and paying for your education,
    that’s tough, the results are the same. – A job and a
    salary.

     

    The Ministry of Defence
    and UKAEA classed its scientists and Professional Engineers as
    Professional Technology Officers.

    PTO 4 & 3 were
    Technicians


    PTO 2
    , PTO 1 & PPTO were PEs.or Scientists. I made all the
    grades.

     

    I await ECUK confirmation
    on the PE status, if they dare to reply.

     

    J Gowman
    MIET



     




  • Former Community Member
    0 Former Community Member in reply to Legh Richardson

    I read many comments that
    are ill founded, there are too many to rectify here.

     

    In my opinion we need to
    keep and respect Technicians.

     

    We need to register BSc
    (or equivalent ) professional engineers with 4 years experience (
    less if apprenticed). No need for titles;  BSc MIET is good
    enough.

     

    We need a UK state
    register of FEANI equivalent BSc Professional engineers before they
    gain work experience. - Not CEN, just BSc.

     

    Last minute
    fact;

    Due to BREXIT, the UK
    Government is funding and backing new taught apprenticeship schemes
    taught in further education establishments – colleges,
    universities, with in house practical training and local industrial
    out-placing.

    This was the UK situation
    in the post war period until the late 80s.

     

    College and University
    offer three types of apprenticeship, inter linked in order that
    students can progress to the level they are fit and competent to
    exercise.


    ·        
    Skilled
    Technician


    ·        
    PE BSc (Hons)


    ·        
    Engineer MEng

     I had the chance to
    be trained this way.

     

    We no longer need CEng,
    it belongs to the past and is not respected as most CEng are not
    meeting UK Spec and are not working at engineering.

     

    CEng is a British
    peculiarity that needs reform, it is a status renewed each year by
    PEIs with the ECUK not a title, not a qualification.

     

    Past & retired PEs
    should have a PEI title only.

     

    IEng is not a
    Technician.

    No IEng would ever accept
    to be classed as a Technician, it is denigrating for each
    profession. I was a Full Technician. I chose to become a
    Professional Engineer, I never felt that my ECUK title was
    respectful of the time and effort that I spent to gain the
    competences and experience. 

    Any one who has the means
    can go through Fac, but try working and paying for your education,
    that’s tough, the results are the same. – A job and a
    salary.

     

    The Ministry of Defence
    and UKAEA classed its scientists and Professional Engineers as
    Professional Technology Officers.

    PTO 4 & 3 were
    Technicians


    PTO 2
    , PTO 1 & PPTO were PEs.or Scientists. I made all the
    grades.

     

    I await ECUK confirmation
    on the PE status, if they dare to reply.

     

    J Gowman
    MIET



     




  • Former Community Member
    0 Former Community Member in reply to Legh Richardson

    I read many comments that
    are ill founded, there are too many to rectify here.

     

    In my opinion we need to
    keep and respect Technicians.

     

    We need to register BSc
    (or equivalent ) professional engineers with 4 years experience (
    less if apprenticed). No need for titles;  BSc MIET is good
    enough.

     

    We need a UK state
    register of FEANI equivalent BSc Professional engineers before they
    gain work experience. - Not CEN, just BSc.

     

    Last minute
    fact;

    Due to BREXIT, the UK
    Government is funding and backing new taught apprenticeship schemes
    taught in further education establishments – colleges,
    universities, with in house practical training and local industrial
    out-placing.

    This was the UK situation
    in the post war period until the late 80s.

     

    College and University
    offer three types of apprenticeship, inter linked in order that
    students can progress to the level they are fit and competent to
    exercise.


    ·        
    Skilled
    Technician


    ·        
    PE BSc (Hons)


    ·        
    Engineer MEng

     I had the chance to
    be trained this way.

     

    We no longer need CEng,
    it belongs to the past and is not respected as most CEng are not
    meeting UK Spec and are not working at engineering.

     

    CEng is a British
    peculiarity that needs reform, it is a status renewed each year by
    PEIs with the ECUK not a title, not a qualification.

     

    Past & retired PEs
    should have a PEI title only.

     

    IEng is not a
    Technician.

    No IEng would ever accept
    to be classed as a Technician, it is denigrating for each
    profession. I was a Full Technician. I chose to become a
    Professional Engineer, I never felt that my ECUK title was
    respectful of the time and effort that I spent to gain the
    competences and experience. 

    Any one who has the means
    can go through Fac, but try working and paying for your education,
    that’s tough, the results are the same. – A job and a
    salary.

     

    The Ministry of Defence
    and UKAEA classed its scientists and Professional Engineers as
    Professional Technology Officers.

    PTO 4 & 3 were
    Technicians


    PTO 2
    , PTO 1 & PPTO were PEs.or Scientists. I made all the
    grades.

     

    I await ECUK confirmation
    on the PE status, if they dare to reply.

     

    J Gowman
    MIET



     




  • Former Community Member
    0 Former Community Member in reply to Legh Richardson

    I read many comments that
    are ill founded, there are too many to rectify here.

     

    In my opinion we need to
    keep and respect Technicians.

     

    We need to register BSc
    (or equivalent ) professional engineers with 4 years experience (
    less if apprenticed). No need for titles;  BSc MIET is good
    enough.

     

    We need a UK state
    register of FEANI equivalent BSc Professional engineers before they
    gain work experience. - Not CEN, just BSc.

     

    Last minute
    fact;

    Due to BREXIT, the UK
    Government is funding and backing new taught apprenticeship schemes
    taught in further education establishments – colleges,
    universities, with in house practical training and local industrial
    out-placing.

    This was the UK situation
    in the post war period until the late 80s.

     

    College and University
    offer three types of apprenticeship, inter linked in order that
    students can progress to the level they are fit and competent to
    exercise.


    ·        
    Skilled
    Technician


    ·        
    PE BSc (Hons)


    ·        
    Engineer MEng

     I had the chance to
    be trained this way.

     

    We no longer need CEng,
    it belongs to the past and is not respected as most CEng are not
    meeting UK Spec and are not working at engineering.

     

    CEng is a British
    peculiarity that needs reform, it is a status renewed each year by
    PEIs with the ECUK not a title, not a qualification.

     

    Past & retired PEs
    should have a PEI title only.

     

    IEng is not a
    Technician.

    No IEng would ever accept
    to be classed as a Technician, it is denigrating for each
    profession. I was a Full Technician. I chose to become a
    Professional Engineer, I never felt that my ECUK title was
    respectful of the time and effort that I spent to gain the
    competences and experience. 

    Any one who has the means
    can go through Fac, but try working and paying for your education,
    that’s tough, the results are the same. – A job and a
    salary.

     

    The Ministry of Defence
    and UKAEA classed its scientists and Professional Engineers as
    Professional Technology Officers.

    PTO 4 & 3 were
    Technicians


    PTO 2
    , PTO 1 & PPTO were PEs.or Scientists. I made all the
    grades.

     

    I await ECUK confirmation
    on the PE status, if they dare to reply.

     

    J Gowman
    MIET



     




  • Former Community Member
    0 Former Community Member
    There is  society in UK , I think they are called the Society of Professional Engineers.

    One can get membership with them and be designated as a PEng, if overseas then PEng(UK).

    All needed is bachelors and experience.

    I don't know what is their standing.

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