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U.K. ENGINEERING 2016 REPORT

Former Community Member over 8 years ago

I have noted in another discussion, several comments of my own, but there seems to be a lack of interest or it takes too long to read and digest the report.

Apart from Roy's original comments and direction to be able to read the report, it would be great to find out if IMechE, ICE and the IET have had any official comments on the report and if not, when can we expect any.?

Daniel

P.S. Just had to get away from CEng v IEng status discussion.

0 Andy Millar over 8 years ago

Mark Curtis:

The UK Engineering Report implies that the required theoretical knowledge and practical application gained in employment-based or apprenticeship training (i.e. non-degree) should be regarded as just as valid as that received through a University course. I fully agree with this.

Absolutely!
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0 Andy Millar over 8 years ago

Brian Robertson:
engineering requires a combination of theoretical knowledge and its practical application

I agree with the above, the theoretical knowledge PART comes from education e.g. Washington Accord degree.

In Aus, USA and other countries you need both. I think its a great idea. UK needs to adopt a similar path.

Would you want to see a doctor or dentist, with no education and only an experienced path?

I wonder how would insurance companies would like this.

Brian,

I do understand and appreciate your point, but realistically we know that there are many leading professionals in engineering who have managed to reach that level despite not being degree / higher degree qualified; and to say "I don't care if you are the founder of Microsoft, we're not having you in our club" seems a bit odd.

Engineering is a strange profession in having other routes to expertise. But, of course, there has to be stringent proof that applicants for registration are showing the same degree of technical knowledge, expertise, and ability to learn as those with the exemplifying qualifications. Personally I think the current registration review is reasonably good at this (probably as good as it could be given the resources available), although I'm sure others would disagree. But in my mind what is more important is whether this review would lead to any improvement in the robustness for this process. We cannot afford to rule out non-graduate engineers from professional roles (and I don't see any advantage in doing so), but Prof Luff is - to me - quite right in saying that we need to look hard at the registraion process.

On your specific question "would you want to see...": as I've mentioned here before, anyone who travels by train in southern UK has been trusting their life for many years to highly safety-critical software software developed by a non-graduate ex-colleague of mine. Jolly good software it is too according to the independent assesments of the development process. This engineer may not be the rule, but he is certainly one of the many exceptions that test it. Insurance companies are fine with this, they just want to know that the company that employs engineers takes responsibility for its staff. And for safety-critical work assessors want to see evidence of competence, for which - for a 40-50 year old engineer - a degree barely registers.

So on this point I think it's a very pragmatic report.

(P.S. None of this devalues degrees, those without already have to work much harder to prove their worth, and find it very much harder in the job market. But that's been discussed to death elsewhere.)

Cheers, Andy
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0 Former Community Member over 8 years ago

Andy, Mark,

I think this is the right approach as long as there is a credible way to evaluate or accredit such work or apprenticeship based learning.

I think the mature adult rout or experienced professional rout to registration as an engineer with EC UK is addressing this requirement.

Usually a CEng or IEng or similar who is a direct line manager familiar with applicants work signs supporter forms.

The issue is that such registration rout is discriminated against the registered engineer when it comes to international agreements and mobility of the engineers.

Maybe an engineer achieving registration by accreditation of their prior learning should be issued a document under the royal charter of the PEI that would be recognized alternative?

C&G used to do something in that area but no longer. It can be called Professional BEng for IEng and Professional MEng for CEng. Or to simplify the IEng or CEng certificate will also be a Professional BEng or Professional MEng.

Let employers decide how they want to accept it. And also develop accelerated programs with universities etc.
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0 Howard Leamon over 8 years ago

Re Nicholai Wilson (Brian Robertson by proxy):

I have lurked on this thread (and the preceding related threads) for a while.

With no prejudice whatsoever this recent post is, in my opinion, the most concise and sensible post I have read across the entire discussion. As an experienced (15+ years) and degree qualified engineer who has considered IEng as a path upwards I have read the toings and froings of other contributors and see no formal benefit as yet outside of my own desire to seemingly advance. In fact, a PRA that I have informally contacted suggested that I might dive straight into CEng registration because I can and not that I am clearly an outstanding contributor to the engineering community. Once again, then, we come round to what it really means to be IEng or CEng as I am employed outside of the UK and my employer sees it only as personal advance and not necessarily direct benefit to the organisation.

No conslusions yet, as I see but I continue to lurk with bated breath.

Regards,

Howard Leamon MIET
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0 Former Community Member over 8 years ago in reply to Legh Richardson

Discussions > Professional registration
matters > Too old at
30?

Andy, at forty I was told
that I was too old for a true engineering post; at 50 I was classed
senior; at 55 I was told that if I did not find a new contract, I
would be exempt for finding work.
That’s the HR and
administration point of view.

Then I was called upon to
advise and reorganise traditional engineering structures where each
discipline worked isolated and autonomously. It was not easy to get
managers or directors to cooperate, but I managed to restructure
the engineering coordination between disciplines.

At 60 I was head hunted
to check the 75 000 Plans and Technical Calculations of an EPR
construction – just in
time. And at 63, I “filled in” to lead the dismantling of one
of the last original R&D nuclear reactors. At the same time I
mentored 6 master students and had two “Stagaires” in DAD one was 21 and the
other 65 - the head of a foreign country’s Nuclear R&D in DAD
(nuclear dismantling procedures). It is never too late to learn. At
67 I have been head hunted for another major nuclear project, we
are just a handful left that are nuclear generalists, there are
none in the UK.

It is not age that counts
it is the prejudice of HR and Directors who do not analyse or
reflect on what they need.

An older person, if
competent, has a tremendous horizontal experience which could be
valuable for the enterprise, he will not be put under
pressure.

However, the same HR and
directors do not invest in CPD of their engineering staff, as it is
more economic to replace someone with a newly formed engineer with
the latest IT skills. The Engineer who lost his position, if he
does not keep up to date with technology applications will be
unemployable.

CPD is a
must.

In Switzerland you are
expected to spend 4 weeks each year on CPD. In France now, CPD is a
budget you are allocated and CPD is a right that an employer cannot
refuse twice.

I have kept up my CPD
personally, not restrained by IET or PEI procedures.

IT is changing quickly,
PEs must master the latest programmes or leave the
profession.

PEs at any grade that
stay in one discipline in one organisation will have little chance
of changing employer or duties. They will not have the cross
discipline experience.

It is not a question of I
Eng or CEng or age, it is a question of competence.

These blogs are being
manoeuvred by a set of bloggers not open to change or
progress.

The U.K. ENGINEERING 2016
REPORT is a particular UK problem made even more
important due to BREXIT, advice from non Brits may be useful but it
is meddling in UK affaires.

It is important that
young people starting in the profession at the four following
grades, do so by any means possible –

·
Specialist
craftsmen

·
Technician – C&G or HNC
etc

·
PE (I Eng, FEANI Eur Ing,
BSc by any route)

·
Consultant, expert MEng
(CEng with a MEng)

A Technician apprentice will
study at night school and by day release. These studies are as
important and equal to the best part of any BSc where you attend
lectures and read. This academic base can be completed by further
studies by correspondence or part time college or university
courses.

A degree is a degree no
matter how or where you obtain it.

However, university study
alone will leave you void of vital experience in production or
development of engineering commodities.

I have come across many
university lecturers who have never been to
university.

This whole debacle is UK
pride and prejudice.

The U.K. ENGINEERING 2016
REPORT needs to consider the UK’s future and how we
achieve to recruit and satisfy the four main components above in
the huge generalist subject of engineering.

If it can separate the three
grades of craftsman, technician and Professional engineer (under
any name, and bring in the French VAE system to cover all academic
learning) then we are nearly home.

The PE must be registered
independently from his PEI. It can be a title for
life.

CEng can be simply MEng -
MIET then we need to think about responsibility, assurances, and
legal liabilities.

·
CEng must be validated each
year.

·
Engineering Managers and
Professors are not CEng. they have other titles and PEIs. They are
MIET.

ECUK needs to be given a new
function of registering PEs or a new system created, why not just
register all PE qualifications.

CEng is not compatible with
the requirements of FEANI or the Professional Engineer
worldwide.

Australia, Canada, USA, are
protectionist they are not to be followed, and any way, why are non
British or PEs not resident in the UK or the Commonwealth seeking
UK CEng?

-
What do we need from our PEI
IET?

Not PE registration, maybe
MEng CEng

Not peer reviews they are
not ECUK requirements.

Take U.K. ENGINEERING 2016
REPORT have it analysed by all MIET, not just CEng
electrical & IT; then make a statistical report on what we need
for the future.

The UK and BREXIT needs PEs
BSc now and trained in the required up to date
technologies.

J Gowman MIET
Cancel
Vote Up 0 Vote Down

Cancel
0 Former Community Member over 8 years ago in reply to Legh Richardson

Discussions > Professional registration
matters > Too old at
30?

Andy, at forty I was told
that I was too old for a true engineering post; at 50 I was classed
senior; at 55 I was told that if I did not find a new contract, I
would be exempt for finding work.
That’s the HR and
administration point of view.

Then I was called upon to
advise and reorganise traditional engineering structures where each
discipline worked isolated and autonomously. It was not easy to get
managers or directors to cooperate, but I managed to restructure
the engineering coordination between disciplines.

At 60 I was head hunted
to check the 75 000 Plans and Technical Calculations of an EPR
construction – just in
time. And at 63, I “filled in” to lead the dismantling of one
of the last original R&D nuclear reactors. At the same time I
mentored 6 master students and had two “Stagaires” in DAD one was 21 and the
other 65 - the head of a foreign country’s Nuclear R&D in DAD
(nuclear dismantling procedures). It is never too late to learn. At
67 I have been head hunted for another major nuclear project, we
are just a handful left that are nuclear generalists, there are
none in the UK.

It is not age that counts
it is the prejudice of HR and Directors who do not analyse or
reflect on what they need.

An older person, if
competent, has a tremendous horizontal experience which could be
valuable for the enterprise, he will not be put under
pressure.

However, the same HR and
directors do not invest in CPD of their engineering staff, as it is
more economic to replace someone with a newly formed engineer with
the latest IT skills. The Engineer who lost his position, if he
does not keep up to date with technology applications will be
unemployable.

CPD is a
must.

In Switzerland you are
expected to spend 4 weeks each year on CPD. In France now, CPD is a
budget you are allocated and CPD is a right that an employer cannot
refuse twice.

I have kept up my CPD
personally, not restrained by IET or PEI procedures.

IT is changing quickly,
PEs must master the latest programmes or leave the
profession.

PEs at any grade that
stay in one discipline in one organisation will have little chance
of changing employer or duties. They will not have the cross
discipline experience.

It is not a question of I
Eng or CEng or age, it is a question of competence.

These blogs are being
manoeuvred by a set of bloggers not open to change or
progress.

The U.K. ENGINEERING 2016
REPORT is a particular UK problem made even more
important due to BREXIT, advice from non Brits may be useful but it
is meddling in UK affaires.

It is important that
young people starting in the profession at the four following
grades, do so by any means possible –

·
Specialist
craftsmen

·
Technician – C&G or HNC
etc

·
PE (I Eng, FEANI Eur Ing,
BSc by any route)

·
Consultant, expert MEng
(CEng with a MEng)

A Technician apprentice will
study at night school and by day release. These studies are as
important and equal to the best part of any BSc where you attend
lectures and read. This academic base can be completed by further
studies by correspondence or part time college or university
courses.

A degree is a degree no
matter how or where you obtain it.

However, university study
alone will leave you void of vital experience in production or
development of engineering commodities.

I have come across many
university lecturers who have never been to
university.

This whole debacle is UK
pride and prejudice.

The U.K. ENGINEERING 2016
REPORT needs to consider the UK’s future and how we
achieve to recruit and satisfy the four main components above in
the huge generalist subject of engineering.

If it can separate the three
grades of craftsman, technician and Professional engineer (under
any name, and bring in the French VAE system to cover all academic
learning) then we are nearly home.

The PE must be registered
independently from his PEI. It can be a title for
life.

CEng can be simply MEng -
MIET then we need to think about responsibility, assurances, and
legal liabilities.

·
CEng must be validated each
year.

·
Engineering Managers and
Professors are not CEng. they have other titles and PEIs. They are
MIET.

ECUK needs to be given a new
function of registering PEs or a new system created, why not just
register all PE qualifications.

CEng is not compatible with
the requirements of FEANI or the Professional Engineer
worldwide.

Australia, Canada, USA, are
protectionist they are not to be followed, and any way, why are non
British or PEs not resident in the UK or the Commonwealth seeking
UK CEng?

-
What do we need from our PEI
IET?

Not PE registration, maybe
MEng CEng

Not peer reviews they are
not ECUK requirements.

Take U.K. ENGINEERING 2016
REPORT have it analysed by all MIET, not just CEng
electrical & IT; then make a statistical report on what we need
for the future.

The UK and BREXIT needs PEs
BSc now and trained in the required up to date
technologies.

J Gowman MIET
Cancel
Vote Up 0 Vote Down

Cancel
0 Former Community Member over 8 years ago in reply to Legh Richardson

Discussions > Professional registration
matters > Too old at
30?

Andy, at forty I was told
that I was too old for a true engineering post; at 50 I was classed
senior; at 55 I was told that if I did not find a new contract, I
would be exempt for finding work.
That’s the HR and
administration point of view.

Then I was called upon to
advise and reorganise traditional engineering structures where each
discipline worked isolated and autonomously. It was not easy to get
managers or directors to cooperate, but I managed to restructure
the engineering coordination between disciplines.

At 60 I was head hunted
to check the 75 000 Plans and Technical Calculations of an EPR
construction – just in
time. And at 63, I “filled in” to lead the dismantling of one
of the last original R&D nuclear reactors. At the same time I
mentored 6 master students and had two “Stagaires” in DAD one was 21 and the
other 65 - the head of a foreign country’s Nuclear R&D in DAD
(nuclear dismantling procedures). It is never too late to learn. At
67 I have been head hunted for another major nuclear project, we
are just a handful left that are nuclear generalists, there are
none in the UK.

It is not age that counts
it is the prejudice of HR and Directors who do not analyse or
reflect on what they need.

An older person, if
competent, has a tremendous horizontal experience which could be
valuable for the enterprise, he will not be put under
pressure.

However, the same HR and
directors do not invest in CPD of their engineering staff, as it is
more economic to replace someone with a newly formed engineer with
the latest IT skills. The Engineer who lost his position, if he
does not keep up to date with technology applications will be
unemployable.

CPD is a
must.

In Switzerland you are
expected to spend 4 weeks each year on CPD. In France now, CPD is a
budget you are allocated and CPD is a right that an employer cannot
refuse twice.

I have kept up my CPD
personally, not restrained by IET or PEI procedures.

IT is changing quickly,
PEs must master the latest programmes or leave the
profession.

PEs at any grade that
stay in one discipline in one organisation will have little chance
of changing employer or duties. They will not have the cross
discipline experience.

It is not a question of I
Eng or CEng or age, it is a question of competence.

These blogs are being
manoeuvred by a set of bloggers not open to change or
progress.

The U.K. ENGINEERING 2016
REPORT is a particular UK problem made even more
important due to BREXIT, advice from non Brits may be useful but it
is meddling in UK affaires.

It is important that
young people starting in the profession at the four following
grades, do so by any means possible –

·
Specialist
craftsmen

·
Technician – C&G or HNC
etc

·
PE (I Eng, FEANI Eur Ing,
BSc by any route)

·
Consultant, expert MEng
(CEng with a MEng)

A Technician apprentice will
study at night school and by day release. These studies are as
important and equal to the best part of any BSc where you attend
lectures and read. This academic base can be completed by further
studies by correspondence or part time college or university
courses.

A degree is a degree no
matter how or where you obtain it.

However, university study
alone will leave you void of vital experience in production or
development of engineering commodities.

I have come across many
university lecturers who have never been to
university.

This whole debacle is UK
pride and prejudice.

The U.K. ENGINEERING 2016
REPORT needs to consider the UK’s future and how we
achieve to recruit and satisfy the four main components above in
the huge generalist subject of engineering.

If it can separate the three
grades of craftsman, technician and Professional engineer (under
any name, and bring in the French VAE system to cover all academic
learning) then we are nearly home.

The PE must be registered
independently from his PEI. It can be a title for
life.

CEng can be simply MEng -
MIET then we need to think about responsibility, assurances, and
legal liabilities.

·
CEng must be validated each
year.

·
Engineering Managers and
Professors are not CEng. they have other titles and PEIs. They are
MIET.

ECUK needs to be given a new
function of registering PEs or a new system created, why not just
register all PE qualifications.

CEng is not compatible with
the requirements of FEANI or the Professional Engineer
worldwide.

Australia, Canada, USA, are
protectionist they are not to be followed, and any way, why are non
British or PEs not resident in the UK or the Commonwealth seeking
UK CEng?

-
What do we need from our PEI
IET?

Not PE registration, maybe
MEng CEng

Not peer reviews they are
not ECUK requirements.

Take U.K. ENGINEERING 2016
REPORT have it analysed by all MIET, not just CEng
electrical & IT; then make a statistical report on what we need
for the future.

The UK and BREXIT needs PEs
BSc now and trained in the required up to date
technologies.

J Gowman MIET
Cancel
Vote Up 0 Vote Down

Cancel
0 Former Community Member over 8 years ago in reply to Legh Richardson

Discussions > Professional registration
matters > Too old at
30?

Andy, at forty I was told
that I was too old for a true engineering post; at 50 I was classed
senior; at 55 I was told that if I did not find a new contract, I
would be exempt for finding work.
That’s the HR and
administration point of view.

Then I was called upon to
advise and reorganise traditional engineering structures where each
discipline worked isolated and autonomously. It was not easy to get
managers or directors to cooperate, but I managed to restructure
the engineering coordination between disciplines.

At 60 I was head hunted
to check the 75 000 Plans and Technical Calculations of an EPR
construction – just in
time. And at 63, I “filled in” to lead the dismantling of one
of the last original R&D nuclear reactors. At the same time I
mentored 6 master students and had two “Stagaires” in DAD one was 21 and the
other 65 - the head of a foreign country’s Nuclear R&D in DAD
(nuclear dismantling procedures). It is never too late to learn. At
67 I have been head hunted for another major nuclear project, we
are just a handful left that are nuclear generalists, there are
none in the UK.

It is not age that counts
it is the prejudice of HR and Directors who do not analyse or
reflect on what they need.

An older person, if
competent, has a tremendous horizontal experience which could be
valuable for the enterprise, he will not be put under
pressure.

However, the same HR and
directors do not invest in CPD of their engineering staff, as it is
more economic to replace someone with a newly formed engineer with
the latest IT skills. The Engineer who lost his position, if he
does not keep up to date with technology applications will be
unemployable.

CPD is a
must.

In Switzerland you are
expected to spend 4 weeks each year on CPD. In France now, CPD is a
budget you are allocated and CPD is a right that an employer cannot
refuse twice.

I have kept up my CPD
personally, not restrained by IET or PEI procedures.

IT is changing quickly,
PEs must master the latest programmes or leave the
profession.

PEs at any grade that
stay in one discipline in one organisation will have little chance
of changing employer or duties. They will not have the cross
discipline experience.

It is not a question of I
Eng or CEng or age, it is a question of competence.

These blogs are being
manoeuvred by a set of bloggers not open to change or
progress.

The U.K. ENGINEERING 2016
REPORT is a particular UK problem made even more
important due to BREXIT, advice from non Brits may be useful but it
is meddling in UK affaires.

It is important that
young people starting in the profession at the four following
grades, do so by any means possible –

·
Specialist
craftsmen

·
Technician – C&G or HNC
etc

·
PE (I Eng, FEANI Eur Ing,
BSc by any route)

·
Consultant, expert MEng
(CEng with a MEng)

A Technician apprentice will
study at night school and by day release. These studies are as
important and equal to the best part of any BSc where you attend
lectures and read. This academic base can be completed by further
studies by correspondence or part time college or university
courses.

A degree is a degree no
matter how or where you obtain it.

However, university study
alone will leave you void of vital experience in production or
development of engineering commodities.

I have come across many
university lecturers who have never been to
university.

This whole debacle is UK
pride and prejudice.

The U.K. ENGINEERING 2016
REPORT needs to consider the UK’s future and how we
achieve to recruit and satisfy the four main components above in
the huge generalist subject of engineering.

If it can separate the three
grades of craftsman, technician and Professional engineer (under
any name, and bring in the French VAE system to cover all academic
learning) then we are nearly home.

The PE must be registered
independently from his PEI. It can be a title for
life.

CEng can be simply MEng -
MIET then we need to think about responsibility, assurances, and
legal liabilities.

·
CEng must be validated each
year.

·
Engineering Managers and
Professors are not CEng. they have other titles and PEIs. They are
MIET.

ECUK needs to be given a new
function of registering PEs or a new system created, why not just
register all PE qualifications.

CEng is not compatible with
the requirements of FEANI or the Professional Engineer
worldwide.

Australia, Canada, USA, are
protectionist they are not to be followed, and any way, why are non
British or PEs not resident in the UK or the Commonwealth seeking
UK CEng?

-
What do we need from our PEI
IET?

Not PE registration, maybe
MEng CEng

Not peer reviews they are
not ECUK requirements.

Take U.K. ENGINEERING 2016
REPORT have it analysed by all MIET, not just CEng
electrical & IT; then make a statistical report on what we need
for the future.

The UK and BREXIT needs PEs
BSc now and trained in the required up to date
technologies.

J Gowman MIET
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0 Peter Miller over 8 years ago

In terms of IEng, I think it is dead in the water, the number of new incorporated engineers is in 100's. if you discount those over 50 years of age it is clear no one sees it with any relevance.
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0 Former Community Member over 8 years ago in reply to Legh Richardson

Peter
Miller

Yes I Eng is dead it
is a degrading title.

So is CEng a
superfluos regime of no value to engineering.

There is a huge
majority of IEng type PEs outside of PEIs - in the UK.

We need a total
rethink about what engineering & the UK needs.

CEngs need to get
their heads out of the sand.

Europe and
the rest of the world have applied the UK imposed system of LMD.
But the UK still hangs on to Honours degrees, which are not
respected outside of the UK. This I know from the unfortunate
European students that go to UK Universities for Licence (Three
years university -BA or BSc) take Honours degrees and then find
them selves blocked from master degrees in Europe.

The UK
needs to define what it wants from further education and technology
training. - The Government (now dismissed due to BREXIT) had
started a Three Grade University coordinated Apprentice scheme -see
E&T April 2017)

The ECUK
is addressing this problem , but is controlled by PEIs . it is the
PEI & CEng out of date protectionism that needs to be
resolved.

If IET
continues with this CEng is lord and best attitude, it will
quickly collapse.

I see that
the Council and Board is out of line with IET bloggers, but the
Board & Council up hold the IET constitution which sees IET
open and equal to all grades of PEs Technologists and interested
Scientists of all genders (I see no females on this blog!) and all
disciplines.

If IET and
other PEIs do not meet the needs of up and comming PEs then it will
just very quickly collapse.

I see the
attitude on this blog isolated from reality and from the rest of
the World.

J Gowman
MIET
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U.K. ENGINEERING 2016 REPORT

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