530kW motor checks? !!

First I must say this is off the end of my experience, so what follows is general thoughts only.


Mechanical  Damage to mountings or distortion to the frame would be pretty final. Make sure they take care with the unbolting and lifting.

Bearing condition - on a smaller unit I'd ask if it can be turned - I imagine that is not so easy to try on a unit this size. resist the temptation to pull it round by an impellar blade which may snap at the root. slightly oily bearings are good,dry is bad, as is rusty....


Electrically you do not have the 11kV supply,  (and you'd need a transformer the size of a small substation to step it up from 3 phase 230V/400, and then a real small substation to supply it.... ) but a check for winding continuity and insulation resistance to the frame would be a good start A hand held tester on the 1kV range is not the makers approved  "proper" test, but is the best you can probably do standing outside in the rain... Failing insulation could indicate loss of the windings.


If the starting gear is available and not a huge extra cost to acquire it may be sensible to do so, even if it only provides a design for something that can be duplicated. Again, insulation tests and continuity. The exception might be if it contains asbestos or some other nasty chemicals best left to others to sort out, though the 2002 nameplate suggests it is not so old.


Take great care with the capacitor cabinet - there should be some means of bleeding the caps to a safe voltage but if they have been disconnected without too much thought this may not be operating as it should.  When testing caps for insulation, make arrangements for them to be discharged through some current limiting resistance, NOT BY SHORT CIRCUIT - large caps will vapourise the shorting stick, and may baste you in hot metal while doing so, and it is not so good for the capacitors either.

. Even a test at the 1kV upper limit of a typical hand held tester will allow you to identify total failures,  but if the caps are then left charged to 1kV, they will hold a potentially lethal charge, and should be brought down in a controlled way. I have used heater elements as resistors for this in the past. I'm sure it is possible to hire something more professional and expensive.

M.

Thank you so much for your reply.


I guess then this capacitor cabinet... is certainly one to avoid!


It's very sad that none of the equipment (that must have originally cost a fortune!) was properly decommissioned and thus carefully removed to a safe place after all necessary safety checks and/or evaluation of possible reuse were made.


Unfortunately though I see this a lot.

What's only regarded as 'scrap' equipment, BUT actually much could have easily been reused again.


I'm hoping that one of these huge motor pumps can be the refill source for a gravity fed double lagoon generation system which (as not tidal) has to have the water then pumped back into the upper pool, during off-peak periods.

Previously done with diesel pumps, but for a pure 'green' energy .....making the entire process electrically run, seems best.


An 11kv 3 phase supply will be available when installed (as the system will thus feed directly into that) and require that line to operate the motor for re-pumping.

I had originally intended to be using many smaller capacity pumps (4 possibly) as the faster the water can be returned to the upper pool during off-peak the better, however this huge pump can shift 2694 L/S so would certainly do the job.... alone!

Imagine running 4 of these.

Certainly would get the water back up into the upper pool, asap.


It was suggested to me that (maybe) the motor could be 'adapted' somehow into being a generator unit too whereby the water is (with a modified pump) made to turn... and then it simply powers up as a motor again to run the water back up.


This certainly saves having a dual separate layout of a motorpump for water return, and a main generator unit for actual energy supply into the grid, but maybe not possible as it radically alters the original motor and pump's design.

Most new existing gravity generation systems however do now use this method ...but possibly a very expensive option.

The reuse of a 'scrap' pumpunit thus I'd thought to be much cheaper.


One of the steam turbine powered AEI 500MW generator stator and rotor is actually still there.

Rather too large to be of any real use for my small generation project!



The general disarray surrounding the rotor doesn't look very good and so who knows how carefully that was dismantled.

It would require a large water wheel, or turbine certainly to run it at 500MW!!


Anyway, bearings on one motorpump offered seem to be possibly u/s (judging by the general oil slick that has appeared from the motorframe), and so it's possibly failed somehow.


I'm trying to determine IF any original starting gear is available or has already been scrapped.

Indeed if any motorpump unit doesn't find a buyer - is it the intention then to be just scrapped or could 'a deal' be done whereby those parts can still be salvaged (as these motor pump units are not made anymore) and it seems pointless them just heaping up a pile of scrap when many parts even if the whole unit was not suitable to be run, could provide a valuable source of spare parts.

While many won't be thinking of reusing anything like these large pumps, hopefully some can be made to run again :)


I assume the equipment was already fully disconnected from the main busline but the cable channel tracks nearby seem totally undisturbed so I think the actual motor units are still 'connected up' and certainly those caps in the cabinets could even retain a mighty charge.

Is that (I wonder) something the company is actually aware of?


While most demolition isn't now done by a human and hammer, pulling out that capacitor cabinet with a demolition grab or shear could be a timebomb just waiting to go off.

Even someone just cutting the cables in the track conduits from that cap cabinet could be lethal.

I will warn them just incase nobody has risk assessed the possible dangers there.


Certainly a very good point that you bring up! Thanks for that.

(You might have just prevented a nasty accident!)


It reminds me of a news story where a scrap merchant hoisted up, then was oxy acetylene cutting directly into a 11kv transformer (filled with oil of course) and he didn't seem to realise the danger ....until it was too late.


Judging by the capacitor cabinet which I began with - already damaged, that doesn't bode well for onsite safety procedures....

Hello,


Nice points enumerated.

From my view ,I would also check the followings (ensuring all safety precautions and protecting the working area -power supply off)

1) Pump scroll - which I believe is a centrifugal one - check around the housings and gaskets & seals,check for cracks and mountings for any damage

2) Verify alignment connection with electric motor - the guards if in good condition, check the mountings

3) Inspect electric side on motor - if the connection box on the motor had not been tampered,the poles connection are not damaged and perform a continuity test on the windings

4) Check state of the starting panel which from pictures is damaged 


Rgds,

Kevin H

Also if possible check for creatures that may have entered the units and made a home there. When transporting the units try not to cause long duration vibration that could damage items like bearings.


The bearing oil slick could be due to over lubrication or a failed oil seal. An auto oiler may be set wrongly or maintenance personnel may have manually re-greased too much too often.


An oil leak or grease leak does not immediately indicate a failed bearing. In fact the grease may have escaped and carried away dirt and metal shavings etc. which is good. New grease will then be added to prolong bearing life. If the bearing has run hot it may have been worn or damaged. The grease may also indicate bearing misalignment, but that is doubtful. Grease entering motor windings or other electrical parts is very bad.


Z.

Big motor bearings...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ncvX2K7pbjw



Z.

I've contacted ABB in the hope they can supply full and detailed technical info on the motors, as it's been very difficult to find proper specs about them online, or if their motors were ever reused before and any detailed reinstallation instructions for that.


But this forum has given me lots of checking points to do and that's wonderful.

?‍? It's a great learning school here as these large motors are not something I've ever dealt with before, so again many thanks for all assistance! ?



BUT interestingly downloading their current brochure, it shows the motor bearing system used:


and that shows a 'waste grease box' fitted to the front and rear, so.... as Zoomup mentioned:

'An oil leak or grease leak does not immediately indicate a failed bearing. In fact the grease may have escaped and carried away dirt and metal shavings etc. which is good.'


It could indeed be just an overflowing waste box, as the leakage is mainly localised in one place, certainly at the rearend.


Their brochure also mention locks, that should be set prior to any transportation


It seems they have to be fitted (?) and thus may not be internally already inside the motor which one can then simply lock into a transport safe position. Hopefully ABB can advise on the locks for this motor as there may not be any in the storeroom or that could even be yet another vital part that needs to be salvaged, before someone scraps it!!


Can anyone though advise about large motor cooling - and if IP55 motors were JUST designed to be outside?


I'm wondering with the adverse weather now if plans should be altered to enclose the entire motorpump into a pumphouse?

Hopefully ABB can supply the exact cooling system, but their new motors seem to follow the same format


I'm sure the motor would last far longer if inside but am not sure of the possibly restricted cooling effects of placing the unit inside a building, except ducting or vents could be included I suppose, allowing external outside airflow during operation.


Housed would certainly make maintenance schedules far easier and most importantly non-weather dependant too.

It also would be rather nice to have a pre-warmed pumphouse, for the engineer to then work in!


I'm also wondering now (if they can be housed), if it's better to try and obtain 2 pump units, so one can be the runner with another placed as a standby with necessary pipework gate valves fitted to quickly switch the units over.

Gatevalves could possibly be also salvaged, before any currently onsite were just scrapped.


That setup again would simplify maintenance schedules, as the idle unit can be prepared for reuse and given a proper full complete service (while the main unit runs hopefully happily), and thus means a zero downtime of the main pumpunit if there was only one used.


Interesting.

I'm learning lots!

The motor should be ok for outdoor use but should be under cover for protection against direct sunlight and the worst of the weather. If you enclose it, as you say, you have to think about cooling and lighting etc., is it worth it?


Other tests you've already been told about seem fine but you might want to contact Dowding & Mills (now taken over by Sulzer I think) who will know what they're doing and give you more confidence.

I agree it is a crying shame how some things are scrapped - we are in a very wasteful society, and a lot of otherwise good stuff is put beyond use by the demolitions team's lack of understanding.


Re shelter and ventilation:- In hotter countries where things are sometimes painted to match the sand, we may have a sort of 'dutch barn' to keep the sun off things like gensets and so forth, but allow free airflow at the sides.  (it also makes it harder to identify from the air, but I do not think that is a concern in your case) You could have something like that -not much more than 2 rows of I or U girder uprights  and some wriggle-tin to make a sloping hat, maybe some angle iron braces if it the unsupported span gets too big. I realise you are not in the desert, but the same design works just as well for keeping drizzle out of the oilways while you take inspection covers off.


You can then drop curtain walls of canvas or tarp material to keep yourself and the machine out of the worst of the weather when you need to inspect- a few holes for bolts in the frame and some bungee cord is marvellous stuff.

If you are casting a floor slab then its not that much work to make the pads for bolting for this later as an option.

 

Meanwhile it occurs that you could probably hire a large (megawatt ) LV 3 phase genset and a step up tranny if you really really wanted a pre-test. You'd still need the starter - it won't be direct on-line !! There is presumably a 25amp 11kV vacuum or gas filled contactor or two lurking  somewhere.. If it really is 2002, then I'd expect full data on how it is supposed to work to be 'out there'.

If water has got in the caps will be safely discharged, but will need obviously need drying before any attempt to use it.

M.

? You know mapj1....

I hadn't even thought about the entire motor moving about, when/if we can site test it.

Thanks SO MUCH for posting that!

I just thought its sheer weight alone would be enough.... but possibly not.


I hunted around online to see how/if other people managed to test a big motor (if they didn't have the fixing pad quite ready).... and found this!

....but I don't think ratchet straps are really going to work on those 530Kw motors....?

 



So we had better bolt it down as you suggest, to be sure it 100% stays put


I also now think it may also not be best to test run it with a 'dry' pump, so hopefully the driveshaft to it can be disconnected somehow?

I've contacted Warman, to hopefully get the pump techical info and details too.


Much agree about the heavy handed way they steel hammered away at that motor casting in the video. Not even a rubber or nylon one used!!!?

At least they did turn it around, to even out the blows.


Anyway...

? The Dutch Barn idea is superb!

Keeps the worst of the weather off, but the motor can still breathe and that housing design then won't affect its cooling.

As you say, side tarp panels could be made to then lower down keeping the whole thing snug and dry while it has a service.

Brilliant!!


This forum is just SO good!

?

Thanks everyone