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Tingles from lead flashing on house with solar array - anyone else seen this?

A long phone call today with a good friend who is a Niciec Contractor, who is now facing a rather odd problem with a domestic solar array installed by others. The DC string cables from the panels on the roof to the inverter run along some distance under lead flashing, and now workers on the roof are reporting tingles from the metal flashing when standing on their scaffolding.

As part of the testing , the cables have been checked and are isolated from the metal and not damaged in any way. There is a rather variable AC voltage on the lead, relative to the scaffolding, which is at more or less the same as local earth potential. The measured voltage is considerably more when the inverter is on though does not fall completely to zero when it is not.

Now I have not seen the set up, as it is many miles away, but as the voltage is so variable depending on conditions, I am minded to suggest it is capacitive coupling between the DC string cables and the adjacent metal.

I'm also going to suggest earthing the flashing in any case.

However, has anyone else with more experience of modern domestic solar installation ever seen this sort of thing?

 And am I even right in assuming the inverter  action means DC strings are commutating at 50Hz relative to the mains, as would be needed to explain this effect?

Or am I going up the wrong tree altogether ?


The inverter suppliers are not much help, being more of a kit supplier than technical experts on what they stock, and this is not in their FAQ.

  • Hello Mike,

                           would you get capacitive coupling between the d.c. strings that provided a measurable a.c. Voltage on the flashing?


    Could it be slightly live scaffolding and earthed flashing when damp?


    Z.
  • Well, I'm wondering about exactly that. Clearly the strings have a dc voltage between them, but I'm making the mental leap that the inverter is rather like a circuit that applies a 300V battery (derived from the string voltage)  to the mains first one way up and then the other to make a rectangular approximation of mains AC from the DC.

    If this reversing switch view of the process is indeed correct, then the strings take it in turn to be connected, albeit indirectly  to mains live or neutral on alternate half cycles. So  if that is true, then  there would be an AC component, albeit not a proper sinewave one, between either string and neutral or ground.



    The first thought was live scaff but he has done the adventitious electrode and wander lead test, and the scaff. to terra-firma ground voltage is much lower, single figure volts. The flashing to scaff is more like 150V inverter running, and 30-50V with it switched off.
  • I think you are right with the effects of the commutation at 50Hz, but I would suggest that you consider the entire system, is the earthing PME, and if so, are you sure there isn’t a neutral issue. I guess it is also conceivable that there is a lack of earthing on the inverter. 


    Regards,


    Alan.
  • I have been trying to find what is in a modern no transformer solar inverter  design - I am not sure which if any of the ideas in academic circulation a paper describing common solar inverter topologies are  actually used, and what the string to ground waveforms actually look like.

     Any info either  practical or theoretical would be gratefully received.

    It seems a bit unsatisfactory, as it would imply the panels themselves are also flapping about with the switching waveforms, and probably forming large patch antennas, or end loading for the DC cables to act as an antenna.
  • Inverter earthing to the CPC has been verified earlier today, and there are a good few mA of operational leakage on the CPC when the inverter is running.

    Given the time I will ask tomorrow for him to verfy if the house is PME  or TNS though, and the CPC to terra-firma offset voltage - stupidly  I  did not think to ask  that when he called.

    Given where it is, I think it is not likely to be TT, but you never know. I'll be back..

  • I agree that capacitive coupling between the grid tied PV system and the lead flashing is the reason. Although the cables to the PV array are called "DC" they will have AC superimposed by the inverter.

    I would earth/bond the lead flashing. Even a small and not normally dangerous electric shock at a height can be most serious if a fall results.


    A scrap piece of lead covered cable is useful for making an earth connection to lead flashing. This avoids any risk of electrolytic corrosion that might result from connecting a copper wire to the lead flashing.
  • Well as a diagnostic he has tried lifting the PME and using an electrode instead  to make the installation TT , with no discernable change to the voltages before and after, but at least we can rule that sort of flying neutral nastiness from the list of possible causes, which is a good thing.

    I'll mention the corrosion thing though - if it was me it would get soldered, but he is of a  more modern breed, and not likely to consider  airborne hot works as remotely sensible. I also doubt he has any lead cable in the van or even back at base. I on the other hand have a veritable sock drawer of interesting stuff from times past....

    Equally galvanized nails seem to last forever in lead, so maybe a  galvanized nut and bolt would be OK, and certainly for a diagnostic. It can always be glooped in tar afterwards as a nod to the old ways.


    Apparently, unlike the builders, the scaffolders were all quite blasé about it , it seems they get tingles from bits of metal on the outsides of buildings all the time,  though how much of this is just bluster I'm not sure, as that  seems a bit unlikely to me, and if it really is true it is a rather worrying reflection on the wiring in service.  It is in Essex after all ?
  • Tingles from scaffolding whilst it is being erected are quite common, often by capacitive coupling from nearby high voltage grid lines. Once erected it should be fortuitously earthed throughout but persons atop the scaffolding and  making only intermittent contact might receive tingles.


  • If it's Essex it should be all fine after all the residence are the rich beutiful people with perfect installations
  • That is a good point, though no known HV lines in this case. I suppose rubber pads and non-skid feet, and the tendency to use shims of wood to make up levels mean that scaffolding may often be electrically floating and free to pick up an arbitrary voltage. In this specific case the metal scaff has been checked and  is at or very near terra-firma earth voltage, but experience on other sites may explain the scaffolder's apparently rather "gung-ho" attitude.


    round here these things
    fcd4fb23664f54a123c8deff56569bd6-huge-scaff_foot.jpg


    and the big screw up jacklegs seem pretty common, and I'd expect that arrangement to be pretty insulating. I;d be rather less sure of the C to ground, perhaps I need to sneak out and measure one when it is not raining