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UKPN service head to smart meter - Advice and options?

Former Community Member
Former Community Member
Situation - first floor maisonette

UKPN Service head (60A fuse) TN-S is located in ground floor flat with no access for first floor.  Riser cables (VIR badly degraded) run inside brickwork up to another cutout fuse (60A).  Modern cables then loop into smart meter.  UKPN say they are not responsible for the riser - EDS 08-1103 section 6.1 - even though EPN as it was then installed it (although the cutout is theirs and technically only they are allowed to remove the fuse - my thoughts?).  UKPN won't pay for the work so that sits with the client unless anyone can tell me differently?

So, what's the best way to achieve this?  Need to upgrade the cable to 25mm2 (and probably ask to upgrade fuse to 100A) and it's not practical to start digging out the walls, not least because prolonged access to downstairs is not really an option.  Therefore external?  Best method/option?

Thanks in advance


Images - degraded VIR cable; upstairs cutout; downstairs service head
441e1955118398d5c372d5c581f9b1f4-huge-2021-03-08-11.11.21.jpg4d4b6764c4e77cfb446cace0ef9fb2cd-huge-2021-03-08-11.10.56.jpg
b96c361424b4d58634fc968632e95a41-huge-2021-03-08-17.06.50.jpg
  • 0
    This situation is obviously a very serious one making a shock and/or fire risk very possible. As you know it needs serious urgent attention. I would try to escalate the claim for renewals to be undertaken without delay.  Perhaps a report of a burning sell and concerns about fire would help? If you undertake the work, a switch fuse will be needed at the meter position and a new sub-main installed to the upper level. I would also assume TN-C-S despite what you can see.


    Edit add. I would be tempted to get repairs undertaken immediately whatever the cost to the client. It is vital to ensure safety. Safety first, cost second. 


    Can you run a new sub-main externally?


    Z.
  • 0
    6 Existing Supply Arrangements – Modifications and Additions 6.1 Ownership In general, UK Power Networks are unlikely to own risers and laterals in any properties other than purpose-built non-council flats (where there is no other managing body). This means that UK Power Networks will not be responsible for risers and laterals within properties such as houses, properties converted into flats and maisonettes, including those with commercial premises below and a domestic flat above. Historically, the building developer or owner would have paid their own electricians or the contracting branch of the regional electricity company or DNO, to install risers and laterals in a multi-occupancy premise. The regional electricity company or DNO would have then inspected the installation and made the final connections. This does not confirm, or imply, ownership, and in most cases, the DNO is not actually responsible for the internal wiring in any premises. As of 1st June 2013, UK Power Networks shall not own risers and laterals emanating from the intake position into the fabric of the building and shall not adopt those installed by others. Rising and lateral mains and services associated with new supplies shall not be adopted by UK Power Networks. This applies to all three DNO licensees and the IDNO licensee. If the installation beyond the main intake cut-out bears the name or logo of a pre-1947 electricity company, then UK Power Networks are responsible, unless it has been adopted by others since that time. There may be exceptions, where UK Power Networks would be the custodians if the following conditions are met:  In SPN, only riser and lateral systems that are of an adoptable standard, or would have been at the time of construction, if the installation occurred prior to 1st June 2013.  In EPN, only riser and lateral systems that are of an adoptable standard, or would have been at the time of construction, and installed post 1972 and before 1st June 2013. Indications of pre-1972 properties will include the existence of metal-clad cut-outs or VIR cables.  In LPN, riser and lateral systems are not owned by UK Power Networks and consequently are not included within the inspection programme. Note: There are a number of installations in LPN where UK Power Networks has historically received a payment in respect of the ongoing inspection, but not replacement of customer owned risers and laterals. These installations are recorded in the asset register.
  • 0
    In EPN, only riser and lateral systems that are of an adoptable standard, or would have been at the time of construction, and installed post 1972 and before 1st June 2013. Indications of pre-1972 properties will include the existence of metal-clad cut-outs or VIR cables. 


    Z.
  • 0
    Zoomup:

     In EPN, only riser and lateral systems that are of an adoptable standard, or would have been at the time of construction, and installed post 1972 and before 1st June 2013. Indications of pre-1972 properties will include the existence of metal-clad cut-outs or VIR cables. 


    If those frightful cables are between the first service head and the meter, could the supplier be responsible?


    Might the leases say something about rights and responsibilities?


  • 0
    Chris Pearson:
    Zoomup:

     In EPN, only riser and lateral systems that are of an adoptable standard, or would have been at the time of construction, and installed post 1972 and before 1st June 2013. Indications of pre-1972 properties will include the existence of metal-clad cut-outs or VIR cables. 


    If those frightful cables are between the first service head and the meter, could the supplier be responsible?


    Might the leases say something about rights and responsibilities?




    The important thing is to get the urgent repairs done yesterday in my opinion. Leave the legal details and money concerns until later.


    Z.


  • 0
    Zoomup:
    Chris Pearson:
    Zoomup:

     In EPN, only riser and lateral systems that are of an adoptable standard, or would have been at the time of construction, and installed post 1972 and before 1st June 2013. Indications of pre-1972 properties will include the existence of metal-clad cut-outs or VIR cables. 


    If those frightful cables are between the first service head and the meter, could the supplier be responsible?


    Might the leases say something about rights and responsibilities?




    The important thing is to get the urgent repairs done yesterday in my opinion. Leave the legal details and money concerns until later.


    Z.




    Are you having a laugh Zoom.  Are you saying do the work as it's urgent and hope you get paid ?


    Gary


  • 0
    aligarjon:
    Zoomup:
    Chris Pearson:
    Zoomup:

     In EPN, only riser and lateral systems that are of an adoptable standard, or would have been at the time of construction, and installed post 1972 and before 1st June 2013. Indications of pre-1972 properties will include the existence of metal-clad cut-outs or VIR cables. 


    If those frightful cables are between the first service head and the meter, could the supplier be responsible?


    Might the leases say something about rights and responsibilities?




    The important thing is to get the urgent repairs done yesterday in my opinion. Leave the legal details and money concerns until later.


    Z.




    Are you having a laugh Zoom.  Are you saying do the work as it's urgent and hope you get paid ?


    Gary




    Hello Gary, what I am saying is that the owner should get the work done without delay.


    Z.


  • 0
    I agree with Zoomy, SMBD, but if you withdraw the fuse, you black out two apartments. In fact, I think that the DNO should attend urgently, if not as an emergency, and disconnect that dangerous wiring.


    Then the parties can debate how to resolve the situation.


    What does our friendly representative say?
  • 0
    Agree that this needs URGENT attention as suggested in earlier posts.


    In the short term I STRONGLY ADVISE taking a cautious approach and minimising the risks.


    Remove any flammables stored near the cables.

    If not already existing, install a couple of smoke alarms TODAY, basic ones are sold in supermarkets.

    Do not touch or disturb the cables in any way.

    Minimise the consumption of electricity, to avoid heating up any marginal connections.

    If at all goes wrong, ring the fire brigade promptly.
  • 0
    Need to upgrade the cable to 25mm2 (and probably ask to upgrade fuse to 100A)

    Is the 1st floor flat's demand really that high?


    If it is, it might be worth having another conversation with the DNO - that looks to me like a looped supply with a black cut-out (60A max continuous?) with a single fuse that's already supplying both flats. I suspect an upgrade for 100A for just one flat isn't going to be a simple fuse replacement - due to the limitatons of both the exiting cut-out and the incoming cable that's presumably at present supply at least 3 installations.

     
    Best method/option?

    Installation methods will be interesting - as the meter is at the far end it'll be a Building Network rather than normal consumer's installation - so the practicalities of limiting the possibility of "abstraction" will restrict the choices available - generally cables would have to be difficult to 'tap' into and switchgear/fusing would need to be able to be sealed. Often "Ryefield" units or similar are used ... which aren't cheap.


    I'm not sure I'd go into panic mode about the rubber tails - it doesn't look like the insulation is falling off them and if they're embedded in masonry/plaster they're unlikely to start a fire even if severely overloaded (which seems unlikely). Certainly over-due for replacement and it sounds like that's planned anyway - so no point crying wolf.


         - Andy.

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